10NL, QQ fr button 3 bet

3rd hand at the table, had TT in the BB and raised the SB limp.

With no reads at all I find this a bit yucky.



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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker



Hero (BTN): $10.05 (100.5 bb)
SB: $11.70 (117 bb)
BB: $2 (20 bb)
UTG: $2.70 (27 bb)
UTG+1: $8.85 (88.5 bb)
MP1: $20.50 (205 bb)
MP2: $4.60 (46 bb)
MP3: $16.70 (167 bb)
CO: $11.90 (119 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds,
Hero raises to $0.40,
SB raises to $1.20, BB folds, Hero

At first I thought, this is simple! Now I thought through it quickly and am leaning more towards yucky...

I guess there is a an argument for flatting since we have position, this may look like another fight over the blinds, and a 4-bet might only fold out his worse hands.

I still lean towards 4-betting him up to 3.50-4. I think at this level (speaking w/ no experience) you'll get calls from worse: AQ's, 99-JJ's maybe even a bigger range. You can possibly induce some type of donkey bluff 5-bet from those mid pocket pairs too, although that might be stretching for ways to argue my own side for 4-betting pre.

Ya, essentially the table is 3 handed, so in those terms it's an easy play. But I don't know the degree to which my opponent is thinking in those terms.

3 bets at this level tend to swing pretty widely. A lot of players never 3bet anything but AA/KK, and without reads I find it hard to guess what type of player he might be.

Well if you were to call, you would still be getting correct odds to set mine.

you are on the button. the sb may take your small raise as a stealing move. i see no way you are anywhere near behind his re raise range.
id push to $3.50 and snap call any shove by him.

Stu_Ungar said:

Well if you were to call, you would still be getting correct odds to set mine.

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Off topic, but could you explain what the correct odds are to set mine please?

The odds of a pair hitting a set on the flop are 7.5:1

So to set mine you need odds of at least 10:1 to continue. Some people go higher on this figure.. because when you hit a set you want to get at least 10 times the preflop bet.. basically you are playing for stacks and sometimes your opponent will not have a strong enough hand to be willing to put his stack in.

So if your preflop bet is 1/10 of the smallest stack (yours or your opponent) then you get odds to set-mine.

Its the smallest stack because the idea is to get all in before showdown, so the smallest stack size i the maximum that can be won.

Call with position.

Wait so it's folded to you on the button, you open queens and get 3bet? How is this not a bread and butter situation? I understand fr (and especially 10nl) players are nittier than most, but I don't see how we can't get our stack in here.

4bet/calling it off or flatting to disguise our hand and play some postflop poker are both fine. Don't see how it's sticky though.

Stu_Ungar said:

So if your preflop bet is 1/10 of the smallest stack (yours or your opponent) then you get odds to set-mine.

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No, not exactly. In order for that to work, you need to both flop your set and get paid off for the rest of your stack every time for it to be a profitable call.

There's an ongoing debate about set mining odds because of the fact that they don't just rely on the odds off flopping a set, but more so the odds that your opponent will pay you off postflop. And most misjudge that.

Don't overvalue set mining opportunities; think more about how to best exploit your opponent (like 3betting with small pairs, or calling and floating, or raising cbets etc). Especially in 3bet pots. The implied odds just aren't there unless your opponent is a complete nit who you can pin on exactly big pairs.

That said, we're BSB (btn vs sb/bb) and 3bet %s are almost always higher in these situations, and so we can't expect to have great implied odds since our opponent's range will likely be weaker.

That said, we have QQ. We're not thinking about set mining.

I call here with postion.

First of all you are raising on the button and everyone "knows" the button is free license to steal so button raises are much less likely to be respected by anyone in any position.

Second you said this is your 3rd hand and it is already the second time you have raised and are rasing from a stealing position, There is no way we can narrow the villians range to strictly AA, KK, AK.

Third, let us assume the villians range is AA, KK, or AK (which is wrong) then you are 50/50 here of being ahead as there 6 combos of AA and KK each and 12 combos of AK.

Again, you are in position use it.

If the villian C-bets I call on a nonscary flop. Calling c-bets really seems to throw people off at the micro limits. Non scary turn, if villian shoves I consider letting it go but would probably call, if the A or K comes on the turn I would fold, if villian checks and there are no draws I check behind if there are draws I would bet1/2-2/3 the pot to protect against draws and for value against an overplayed AK. Then reevaluate the river.

Just my thoughts, fwiw.

I 4bet this. Your image (if one can have an image after 2 hands) is loose and aggressive because nobody gets 2 hands in their 1st 3 ldo. You're going to get called/shoved on by a ton of worse hands than just KK+. Get it in now.

I feel like our hand is going to be under-repped here quite a bit. We've come in raising off the bat, plus we're in the prime steal position that everyone knows is steal position.

I think we're going to have tons of single overcards in his range here like KJ, AT, etc., as well as all kinds of underpairs that he probably thinks are ahead of you right now. So many micro players defend their blind light, and that's just way more likely than him actually having KK+.

I'd be 4betting him and expecting him to get it in really light here.

Mase31683 said:

I think we're going to have tons of single overcards in his range here like KJ, AT, etc., as well as all kinds of underpairs that he probably thinks are ahead of you right now.

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If his range is that wide, isn't it best to call with position & let him c-bet all sorts of flops we crush him on? He's not stacking off preflop with AT...

I guess it depends on how we expect him to react to a 4bet. I like QQ, and I think it's way ahead, but how do we react if a king or ace rolls off? I wouldn't be comfortable there for sure, and would be wishing I'd pumped it up preflop.

I don't have a real lot of experience in 3bet/4bet pots at this point, so I'm still gaining an understanding of that.

I'm curious how you'd play a bad board? Flat cbet, and continue hoping he's gonna bet air? I'm definitely lost on how to go from there, which lends a lot to me wanting to get the money in when I know I've got equity.

A question for everyone saying to 4-bet, I realize this guy is an unknown but doesnt' a 4-bet/shove here basically make the villian play correctly? I mean won't a 4-bet/shove make the villian fold the majority of hands we are ahead of in this spot and only get called by better?

Mase31683 said:

I guess it depends on how we expect him to react to a 4bet. I like QQ, and I think it's way ahead, but how do we react if a king or ace rolls off? I wouldn't be comfortable there for sure, and would be wishing I'd pumped it up preflop.

I don't have a real lot of experience in 3bet/4bet pots at this point, so I'm still gaining an understanding of that.

I'm curious how you'd play a bad board? Flat cbet, and continue hoping he's gonna bet air? I'm definitely lost on how to go from there, which lends a lot to me wanting to get the money in when I know I've got equity.

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Yeah Im with you on this.. im the same.. notenough experience yet. 3/4 betting seems like a good idea untill you get called and get an unfriendly flop, then you begin to wonder what range would he ba calling with and why you played so hard preflop

Steveg1976 said:

A question for everyone saying to 4-bet, I realize this guy is an unknown but doesnt' a 4-bet/shove here basically make the villian play correctly? I mean won't a 4-bet/shove make the villian fold the majority of hands we are ahead of in this spot and only get called by better?

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Villain is an unknown 10nl player. He's bad until proven otherwise. Unlike C9 I'm never surprised if he gets it in with AT.

ChuckTs said:

Wait so it's folded to you on the button, you open queens and get 3bet? How is this not a bread and butter situation? I understand fr (and especially 10nl) players are nittier than most, but I don't see how we can't get our stack in here.

4bet/calling it off or flatting to disguise our hand and play some postflop poker are both fine. Don't see how it's sticky though.



No, not exactly. In order for that to work, you need to both flop your set and get paid off for the rest of your stack every time for it to be a profitable call.

There's an ongoing debate about set mining odds because of the fact that they don't just rely on the odds off flopping a set, but more so the odds that your opponent will pay you off postflop. And most misjudge that.

Don't overvalue set mining opportunities; think more about how to best exploit your opponent (like 3betting with small pairs, or calling and floating, or raising cbets etc). Especially in 3bet pots. The implied odds just aren't there unless your opponent is a complete nit who you can pin on exactly big pairs.

That said, we're BSB (btn vs sb/bb) and 3bet %s are almost always higher in these situations, and so we can't expect to have great implied odds since our opponent's range will likely be weaker.

That said, we have QQ. We're not thinking about set mining.

Click to expand...

Also set mining odds dont really take into consideration when u actualy flop a set and villain flops a biggers set,flops a FD/SD and hits ect.

Further of the hand.

Looking back, I'd rather 4 bet in this situation if it came up again. But at the time I opted to flat, planning to raise any low or dry flop bet. Turn raise is on the small side, but any bigger and I'm pot committed?



Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (BTN): $10.05 (100.5 bb)
SB: $11.70 (117 bb)
BB: $2 (20 bb)
UTG: $2.70 (27 bb)
UTG+1: $8.85 (88.5 bb)
MP1: $20.50 (205 bb)
MP2: $4.60 (46 bb)
MP3: $16.70 (167 bb)
CO: $11.90 (119 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with Q Q
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, MP2 folds, MP3 folds, CO folds, Hero raises to $0.40, SB raises to $1.20, BB folds, Hero calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.50) T 2 8 (2 players)
SB bets $1.20, Hero raises to $3, SB calls $1.80

Turn: ($8.50) A (2 players)
SB bets $7.50 and is all-in,

NineLions said:

Flop: ($2.50) T

2

8

(2 players)
SB bets $1.20, Hero raises to $3, SB calls $1.80

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A potsized raise here on this flop is to $6.1. Raising to $3 is really just 60 cents more than a min-raise. I'd probably just shove the flop to avoid any crappy stack size issues. Either that, or just flat his bet and let him bluff the turn. But I personally think our hand is a wee bit too vulnerable to just call.

As played, I think we mostly just vomit. We're at a stack size where we've got $5.85 to call to win $14.35 (2.45:1, or 29%). I'm not sure we've got 29% equity, but its certainly close. I'd lean towards folding, but no decision is going to be good here.

Your min-raise on the flop just left us in a position where we're sorta committed, but sorta not, and so it made most turn decisions fairly difficult. Either flat the flop bet, or pump it up for a committing size.

I would shove all in preflop.. i`m not a great player but i think that just calling his 3BET here from the BTN with QQ is too passive of a play, he could be 3BETing you with any mid pair and up in which case you got a + Equity (according to STOVE)... I tend to push those type of hands preflop unless i know that this player is a very tight and i havent seen him 3BET before... but a lot of players will mostly put you on stealing when you raise from BTN so their 3BET might not be as strong as you think...

TheseNutsWin said:

I would shove all in preflop.. i`m not a great player but i think that just calling his 3BET here from the BTN with QQ is too passive of a play, he could be 3BETing you with any mid pair and up in which case you got a + Equity (according to STOVE)... I tend to push those type of hands preflop unless i know that this player is a very tight and i havent seen him 3BET before... but a lot of players will mostly put you on stealing when you raise from BTN so their 3BET might not be as strong as you think...

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I think in a cash game the problem with shoving pre-flopp is that he will fold.

QQ is a strong hand. In the LR you will get more money if you play it postflop. You have to remember that this means that you will loose some pots post flop, but QQ is strong so you will win more than you loose and the pots are now bigger.

Stu_Ungar said:

I think in a cash game the problem with shoving pre-flopp is that he will fold.

QQ is a strong hand. In the LR you will get more money if you play it postflop. You have to remember that this means that you will loose some pots post flop, but QQ is strong so you will win more than you loose and the pots are now bigger.

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True but what do you do when an A or K comes on the flop and he CBETS? you going to fold ? We know most players these days CBET like its a routine. Will you believe him that he hit the A, or K? Will you call his raise to see what he does on the turn? Even better .. When the flop comes 38J and he raises do you put him on AA, KK? will you reraise him? what if you do and he shoves? when if he check/raises you on the flop? Playing QQ post flop when someone 3bets me is something i hate to do , because i never know if i`m ahead or not...like i said i`m not that good yet so i usually dont post my opinions since i`ve been playing poker for only 1 year now but there is still plenty of situations where i`m confused to as of what to do next...

TheseNutsWin said:

True but what do you do when an A or K comes on the flop and he CBETS? you going to fold ? We know most players these days CBET like its a routine. Will you believe him that he hit the A, or K? Will you call his raise to see what he does on the turn? Even better .. When the flop comes 38J and he raises do you put him on AA, KK? will you reraise him? what if you do and he shoves? when if he check/raises you on the flop? Playing QQ post flop when someone 3bets me is something i hate to do , because i never know if i`m ahead or not...like i said i`m not that good yet so i usually dont post my opinions since i`ve been playing poker for only 1 year now but there is still plenty of situations where i`m confused to as of what to do next...

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I know what you are saying, but like I said you wont win all of the pots.

That said, had you gone all-in preflop would he fold holding say AA or KK?

Now how does the A or K on the board look?

True he might be betting with hands that hit the flop, but he will also be playing hands that dont. He is likely to be as worried about an ace hitting as you.

TheseNutsWin said:

True but what do you do when an A or K comes on the flop... blah blah blah

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An ace and I'd probably fold. If a King falls on the flop, I'd probably call one street, but folding isn't bad either. I'm stacking off with all overpairs in 3-bet pots as well.

If our opponent has AK, he will flop a pair (or better) 32% of the time. So while if we shove preflop, he can call without making a mistake he has enough equity. But if we call with position, he will c-bet just about everything and he'll be wrong most of the time (and it will be easy for us to fold when he flops a pair).

If our opponent has a hand like AQ, KJ, or 99, then the odds of us getting outflopped decreases dramatically. These hands will probably fold if we 4-bet & get all in. However, if we call, they're going to c-bet most flops and we'll extract extra value from them.

Its a fairly complex question to know wether to 4-bet or call with position, but in general I use these factors to influence my decision:

1) If their hand range is weak (because they're 3-betting light), I'll call more.
2) If I have position, I'll call more.
3) If they are unlikely to call 4-bets light preflop, I'll call more.
4) Our hand plays very well on most flops.

I think we've got all 3 of these working in our favor. #3 is debatable, but when I was playing $10NL, people were exceptionally weak/tight preflop, especially when dealing with 4-bets.