10nl kk facing UTG raise and overshove

Do we call or shove here and why...!!!???
Stacks: - MarisaRosas with $13.75 - Girga with $1.80 - CRohlfs83 with $4.20 - ca§Honta§H7 with $5.80 - TChad25 with $3.45 - jaketrevvor with $8.80 - laminera with $2.00 - leonardjawar with $10.25




Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: pokerstars
* - Dealt to jaketrevvor:

* - Sklansky group 1
Preflop:
* - leonardjawar raises $0.20 to $0.30
**- 4 players fold.
tchad25 raises $3.15 to $3.45 [ all-in ]
* - jaketrevvor ...

We shove. Basically the only hand that has us is AA, and if we call we're basically committing to calling an all-in on the flop if an A doesn't hit. So no matter what we'll be paying off AA (unless they flop a set). If they don't have AA we want the money in now and no chance for them to draw out on us.

doublefistpumpcallyourgrandmaandbragsnapshove

zachvac said:

We shove. Basically the only hand that has us is AA, and if we call we're basically committing to calling an all-in on the flop if an A doesn't hit. So no matter what we'll be paying off AA (unless they flop a set). If they don't have AA we want the money in now and no chance for them to draw out on us.

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The point of flat-calling would be to induce the utg into the pot and get that extra 3 bucks. Is this really outweighed by the relatively few number of times we get sucked out on on the flop? Maybe. Opinions!

ChuckTs said:

doublefistpumpcallyourgrandmaandbragsnapshove

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Agreed.

The only time I'd call is if I wanted BB or UTG to play, since there're the only ones left who can.

We're increasing our risk by inviting more players in, but sometimes you already have a read on some players as willing to call off with garbage. That garbage may hit, but sometimes I like to take that chance.

The probem is the uncertainty of a flopped A. Even if they don't have an A we can't exactly stack with KK even though it's very likely they flat called with JJ or QQ. Especially at 10nl I think the range of hands that call our shove is wide enough so that the extra $5 makes up for the fact that they don't always call for the extra $3.

First off, we have no reason to think they'll call the initial raise either. They'd need a great hand and I don't see too many hands that are calling to a shove/call that aren't calling to a shove/re-shove. If they have another high pocket pair OR an A, we lose a lot of value when we both flat call. JJ and a Q comes, they're not willing to stack. A comes and we either are beat or we know we can't stack either. If we thought they'd call the initial all-in re-raise with suited connectors or something we'd obviously flat call, but I don't see anything calling that huge re-raise and then a call behind it that isn't calling the huge re-raise and then a shove behind it.

zachvac said:

First off, we have no reason to think they'll call the initial raise either. They'd need a great hand and I don't see too many hands that are calling to a shove/call that aren't calling to a shove/re-shove.

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Maybe, but we must consider that this is 10nl where more ppl raising from utg will figure KTo is worth seeing a flop with with this much moneyz in the pot.

villain is not calling the initial shove with anything that he's not calling an overshove by us with.

From the looks of how this thread has been moving, I take it that you flat call with KK. A on the flop and you somehow get felted.

No offense to you or anything, just a guess.

nope - i'm just trying to represent/argue the absent flat-calling viewpoint. This is nothing to do with what I actually did. If you want to know I shoved but I'd love to hear some more opinions before I post the outcome...

I never understand why people flat call all ins with kk to invite other hands to call. An ace hit the flop about 30% of the time so why give people free cards when holding kings? Push all day long and isolate villain

switch0723 said:

An ace hit the flop about 30% of the time

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If someone is holding an ace one only flops 3/49 + 3/48 + 3/47 times = roughly 18.75% of the time, and that's not even considering the the increased probability that the shover is holding an ace. If we assumed that the utg would call if we flat-called and fold if we shoved (obv a flawed assumption but at 10nl can have merit in places) then we take this risk for the extra 3 bux. Thats not even factoring underpairs into his range which we are of course uber-raping.

Push. You lose too much value to QQ/JJ hands that may call you preflop but won't after the flop if a scare card hits. You'll also let the UTG raiser in with good odds and he may draw out on you. If the villain has AA or they both fold, oh well.

daxter70 said:

standard fold preflop.....

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Ok now it is just annoying.
Joke or not, it needs to end.

daxter70 said:

standard fold preflop.....

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You had me confused, I thought I was in a different thread and was consequently about to post gobbledigook .

jaketrevvor said:

The point of flat-calling would be to induce the utg into the pot and get that extra 3 bucks. Is this really outweighed by the relatively few number of times we get sucked out on on the flop? Maybe. Opinions!

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Nope, insta shove

daxter70 said:

standard fold preflop.....

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As for the actual hand, I really don't think that there's that much of a difference between the two. I will say that in 10nl you're most likely to get looked up with pretty much the same range vs your shove than vs a smooth call, and the added risk of seeing a nasty coordinated/ace-high flop will take some value away from trying to suck in more money. I don't think you could go wrong either way, but fancy play syndrome can often lead to disaster - I shove happily here.

jaketrevvor said:

If someone is holding an ace one only flops 3/49 + 3/48 + 3/47 times = roughly 18.75% of the time, and that's not even considering the the increased probability that the shover is holding an ace. If we assumed that the utg would call if we flat-called and fold if we shoved (obv a flawed assumption but at 10nl can have merit in places) then we take this risk for the extra 3 bux. Thats not even factoring underpairs into his range which we are of course uber-raping.

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That is very true. I just realised i had written it wrong, i was meant to say an ace hits the board 30% of the time about. Which could very well be wrong as its what ive heard and i havnt mathematically checked it

I think I would push in the SB try and lock it up between button and me... if he has an ace and out flops me then so be it... u lose 3.45 and move onto next hand... some other weak hand like aq, qj aj might call the 3.45 along with you and flop 2 pair or trips... best IMO to be heads up with this hand

switch0723 said:

That is very true. I just realised i had written it wrong, i was meant to say an ace hits the board 30% of the time about. Which could very well be wrong as its what ive heard and i havnt mathematically checked it

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Yep that's about right