[10NL FR] KK Facing 4 Bet Shove On Flop

Jurn8

Jurn8

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Here Villian 21/3/1.5 over a 100 hands, I dont know about this I would have but villian on something like AJ or maybe 66s but im not too sure whether I should call or fold here?

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 7 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BB: $12.30 (123 bb)
MP1: $17 (170 bb)
MP2: $10.30 (103 bb)
MP3: $10 (100 bb)
CO: $1.70 (17 bb)
Hero (BTN): $12.05 (120.5 bb)
SB: $26.85 (268.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BTN with K:club: K:diamond:
MP1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, Hero raises to $0.50, SB calls $0.45, BB folds, MP1 calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.60) J:heart: 6:heart: 6:diamond: (3 players)
SB checks, MP1 bets $1, Hero raises to $2.60, SB folds, MP1 raises to $16.50 and is all-in, Hero ???
 
spranger

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That looks like a pretty tough spot. Know he doesn't have aces becuae of limp-call preflop. Probably not queens. Possibly AJ/KJ/QJ/JJ/AKh/A6s is what I would be thinking. I'd stack off here, and say "meh" when he turned over A6 of clubs.
 
The Shrog

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Any stats on him post-flop. Donk bets?
 
BelgoSuisse

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Yeti Theorem - A flop three bet on a dry (preferably paired) board is always a bluff.

Not sure how valid this theorem is nowadays or at 10nl, but i still fist pump call this. I think you're way ahead of his range here, even if it does contain some trips. Lots of jacks and pocket pairs that you crush, maybe a few decent flush + backdoor straight or flush + overs combo draws too.

Also, I don't really like your bet sizing on flop. What are your reasons for raising half pot? Trying to induce a shove?
 
Jurn8

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whats yeti theorem lol ??

Ok thankyou for the feedback belgo, and no it was just poor bet sizing, since this post I have the betpot AHK script up and running which has made my bet sizes alot better I hope.

I face alot of these at 10nl and just simply feel scared to call because I think they always have the nuts, its psychological i think.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Jurn8 said:
whats yeti theorem lol ??
Click to expand...

There's a number of theorems from somewhat famous posters on another forum that people like to quote:

Zeebo's Theorem - Nobody ever folded a full house.

Clarkmeister's Theorem - When you are OOP HU on the river and a 4-flush comes always bet.

BelugaWhale Theorem - When you are the preflop raiser and your turn bet is raised or check/raise, it is time to re-evaluate one pair hands.

Yeti Theorem - A flop three bet on a dry (preferably paired) board is always a bluff.

But of those, Yeti is probably the least reliable.

Ok thankyou for the feedback belgo, and no it was just poor bet sizing, since this post I have the betpot AHK script up and running which has made my bet sizes alot better I hope.
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That's great. Make sure you don't rely exclusively on those, though. use AHK to compute the default bet size, then adjust manually if needed.

I face alot of these at 10nl and just simply feel scared to call because I think they always have the nuts, its psychological i think.
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Probably a leak. Try to call or watch carefully as others make the calls for a while. You'll be surprised at the trash some people shove with sometimes. Also, take specific notes on the type of fishes that play against you. Some fishes shove trash, others always the nuts. Note taking is gold.
 
Jurn8

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BelgoSuisse said:
There's a number of theorems from somewhat famous posters on another forum that people like to quote:

Zeebo's Theorem - Nobody ever folded a full house.

Clarkmeister's Theorem - When you are OOP HU on the river and a 4-flush comes always bet.

BelugaWhale Theorem - When you are the preflop raiser and your turn bet is raised or check/raise, it is time to re-evaluate one pair hands.

Yeti Theorem - A flop three bet on a dry (preferably paired) board is always a bluff.

But of those, Yeti is probably the least reliable.



That's great. Make sure you don't rely exclusively on those, though. use AHK to compute the default bet size, then adjust manually if needed.



Probably a leak. Try to call or watch carefully as others make the calls for a while. You'll be surprised at the trash some people shove with sometimes. Also, take specific notes on the type of fishes that play against you. Some fishes shove trash, others always the nuts. Note taking is gold.
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These theorams are great thanks belgo, I shall write these in my book and learn them thankyou.

I have changed them especially the preflop one but cant seem to get 4xBB raises seems to be 3.5. do you know what number should be on the pre flop line?

I have began to call especially since my sweat with Jay a few days ago and its sometimes laughable what they have somebody shoved with K4o into my set when I was actually in the sweat with Jay and we just laughed but since I have come across J3o alot and random shit Ax. Picked up a few partial stacks yesterday especially off BB when holding PP and donk SB just shoving to steal as everybody else has folded, I call and win the stacks, thankyou.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Jurn8 said:
I have changed them especially the preflop one but cant seem to get 4xBB raises seems to be 3.5. do you know what number should be on the pre flop line?
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3.5 is fine. it's pot-sized.
 
F Paulsson

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While 66 and JJ are in his range, it's vital that you understand that they only make up 4 combos of his possible holdings. And no matter what odds you're getting, you should always call an all-in if you're better off than 50% versus his range. So you need (at the most) 4 combos that he could conceivably do this with that you beat.

And that's without accounting for the fact that people just flat out love to slowplay. I think it's realistic to say that 80% of all players would just call your raise with both JJ and 66 on this flop, so you have to look at his shove and wonder "why would he raise so much? Is he trying to get me to fold? Why?"

... and snap call.

Monsters are very rare. If the only thing that beats you is a monster, you should usually be very happy to get your money in. You should probably fold 77-TT here, though, because AJ and some other top pair type hands are probably a big part of his range, but KK? No doubt there.
 
Jurn8

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Ok thanks for the great advice especially belgo and f paulsson, i guess I made the wrong move and was intimidated by his stack size but reflecting on f paulssons post. Why would he actually raise that much if he had the nuts, because I wouldnt I would bet normally and induce a shove from villian rather than out right shove. I shall take this on board next time, this a a very common spot for me at 10NL, I guess its just my confidence thats low and preventing me from calling.

Thanks Guys
Jake
 
F Paulsson

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Jurn8, are you comfortable with the idea of combos? I realize I just sort of casually used it without considering whether everyone reading this thread understands what I mean by "4 combos." I could maybe make a post in the strategy forum explaining the concept better.
 
Jurn8

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I assumed you mean combos of hands like 66, AJ etc or something I have never came across this before no lol.

If you have time I mean dont do it if you dont want to but that would be great if you could

Jake
 
BelgoSuisse

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Jurn8 said:
I assumed you mean combos of hands like 66, AJ etc or something I have never came across this before no lol.

If you have time I mean dont do it if you dont want to but that would be great if you could

Jake
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By 4 combos he means that there are 3 ways to make a JJ pair using the 3 jacks unaccounted for, and a single way to make 66 given we see the other 2 6 on the board.

On the other hand, there are 12 ways you can make AJ using the 4 aces and 3 jacks we don't see.

So if you put villain specifically on a range of AJ/JJ/66, then 75% of the time (12 combos out of 16) villain will actually have AJ. But if you don't think in terms of combos, you might mistaken think that AJ only happens 33% of the time.
 
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