[10NL FR] AK Turn Line When K Hits?

Here what is my line Check/r, check/call , outright bet? Again I have very little hands on villian just 25 hands and no reads on him.

Sorry for the lack of information on villians but I have no stats or reads.

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP3: $1.80 (18 bb)
CO: $12.80 (128 bb)
BTN: $11.20 (112 bb)
Hero (SB): $10.55 (105.5 bb)
BB: $12.05 (120.5 bb)
UTG+1: $11.05 (110.5 bb)
MP1: $1.55 (15.5 bb)
MP2: $6.55 (65.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with A:heart: K:club:
UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.70, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60, CO folds

Flop: ($1.60) 2:heart: 3:spade: 6:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, UTG+1 calls $1.10

Turn: ($3.80) K:heart: (2 players)
Hero ??

I would lead out for about $3 on the turn. You placed a c-bet on the flop and actually hit one of your cards....great result for you.

If you get a call he is likely sitting on middle pocket pair or is slow playing a set. A reraise from him screams set so watch out.

IMO, checking is a poor option becuase you have to take away his pot odds for a flush draw.

I make it $3 at least, probably pot i like a little better. With the flush draws out there like toad said, it's best to make him pay heavily for it.

i would bet pot.but i dont think he haved a flush draw.maybe a pocket between 5-8...so i think if you bet pot, he will call and if you dont have a bad luck,this hand was yours.

I think that they have straight draw there or pair of sixes & high kicker, and if the turn was K, you should bet like 3$ .. Hope you win :O

Jurn8 said:

Here what is my line Check/r, check/call , outright bet?

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What hands do you expect to call the flop?
How do you think your hand fares against that range?
What's the best action against his range?

As I dont have many reads on him its hard for me to put him on a range but if I did I would say low PP 22-77,Weak aces,K10-KQ.

I would expect him to call any of his range on the flop to see the turn card but raise turn if he has a set or more.

I would think a limp caller UTG+1 is either VERY bad or on a small pocket pair or both. Ax/Kx hands only make sense for horrible player (and in 25 hands you should be able to tell if he's horrible) so I'd say small pocket pairs make up a large percentage of his range. I actually like a ch/call turn, ch/call river (if he checks back the turn bet any river). You're likely never getting 3 streets of value from hands you beat if you do all the betting imo. If he does have a small pair over sixes, he'll likely call a river bet after a turn check and he's only drawing to 2 outs so giving a free card is not a real problem.

If we barrel scare cards a lot, shouldn't we bet when we make our hand on the turn once in a while?

With the flush draw, I think villain's range is a lot wider than pocket pairs.

WVHillbilly said:

I would think a limp caller UTG+1 is either VERY bad or on a small pocket pair or both. Ax/Kx hands only make sense for horrible player (and in 25 hands you should be able to tell if he's horrible) so I'd say small pocket pairs make up a large percentage of his range. I actually like a ch/call turn, ch/call river (if he checks back the turn bet any river). You're likely never getting 3 streets of value from hands you beat if you do all the betting imo. If he does have a small pair over sixes, he'll likely call a river bet after a turn check and he's only drawing to 2 outs so giving a free card is not a real problem.

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Think about how many times you barrel this card as a bluff and get called.

Maybe it's the difference between FR and 6max, but betting this turn in my world is beyond standard. The only time I wouldn't bet it would be as a very tricky, very rare line against a very observant player. Here, we crush his range, he has draws a significant portion of the time, and he's likely to call. Just barrel off.

baudib1 said:

If we barrel scare cards a lot, shouldn't we bet when we make our hand on the turn once in a while?

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Balance is a non-factor here. We have no stats on villain which means we haven't run into him before, and probably won't in the future. Even if we do, we can presume he's a fish with his passive play, and therefore assume he's not paying any attention to how often we bet this kind of turn.

Our hand has a lot of value, our opponent will still call with both made hands and drawing hands, so we bet.

I'll bet about 2/3 - pot here to lay him bad drawing odds on the spades, hearts, or straight draw. I think he's calling the flop with a flush draw, straight draw, or small overpair here very often. If he flopped a set, you're about to find out, but you do need to bet here to protect what is often the best hand.

ChuckTs said:

Think about how many times you barrel this card as a bluff and get called.

Maybe it's the difference between FR and 6max, but betting this turn in my world is beyond standard. The only time I wouldn't bet it would be as a very tricky, very rare line against a very observant player. Here, we crush his range, he has draws a significant portion of the time, and he's likely to call. Just barrel off.



Balance is a non-factor here. We have no stats on villain which means we haven't run into him before, and probably won't in the future. Even if we do, we can presume he's a fish with his passive play, and therefore assume he's not paying any attention to how often we bet this kind of turn.

Our hand has a lot of value, our opponent will still call with both made hands and drawing hands, so we bet.

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You think so? I really don't see a lot of possible draws that he limp/calls with from EP. I also think that checking here is what we often do when we've missed and our cbet has been called. Also if we bet say $3 I guess we're calling if he shoves? I just really like checking this one to him and getting value from small pairs that I believe is like his entire range. Against a bad player I'd bet this every time because I think draws make up a much larger percentage of his range. Again I think we should know if he's bad in 25 hands, so I still like a check/call.

Well again I think we can assume he's a bad player most of the time. Not too many good players will limp-call in EP. As such there are a ton of drawing hands in his range.

Again in 6max if he shoves turn I'm snap calling. May be different in FR and that may shift our turn bet to a check, but considering he's an unknown I think we just assume he's got draws/underpairs here a lot of the time and we just keep betting.

ChuckTs said:

Well again I think we can assume he's a bad player most of the time. Not too many good players will limp-call in EP. As such there are a ton of drawing hands in his range.

Again in 6max if he shoves turn I'm snap calling. May be different in FR and that may shift our turn bet to a check, but considering he's an unknown I think we just assume he's got draws/underpairs here a lot of the time and we just keep betting.

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Chuck do you think the limp-call is a good idea to put on my HUD or is it irrelevant at 10NL?

With large sample sizes it's very relevant. It applies mostly to fish who limp lots, and I expect more fish at the lower levels, so yes. Definitely a good idea.

ChuckTs said:

With large sample sizes it's very relevant. It applies mostly to fish who limp lots, and I expect more fish at the lower levels, so yes. Definitely a good idea.

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sweet, I shall look at your post about this in your HUD report.

How many hands is a large size? 500?800, obviously the more the better however what would be a starting amount.

Depends on the player. If he's a fish then the stat is going to converge a lot faster (he'll be limping more, and his LC % will be defined quickly), but if it's a tighter player then it may take thousands of hands since he won't be limping as often.

Yeah 500 hands will probably start giving you a general idea of how often they call. The more the better.

I'm not entirely sure about sample size with that stat yet. I have it on my hud, but can't figure out how to get it to show sample size since it's not on the popup, and when I hover over it it gives me specific stats for other things for some annoying reason.

hmmm, anybody know where the limp call stat is on PT3 ??

Jurn8 said:

hmmm, anybody know where the limp call stat is on PT3 ??

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It's not a default PT3 stat but it is available in the PT3 Stats repository here:
http://www.pokertracker.com/repository/statistics.php?f[search]=limp+&submit=Search

You want this one: PF limp fold/call/raise stats

what do I do with them once downloaded WV ?

You need to import them by going to Configure > Configure Stats. Select the Statistics Tab and the choose the Import button.
After that they will be available for use on your HUD or whatever (I think you may need to Update the Cache first).

Thanks very much man, job done.

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HAND #1
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Poker Stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

MP3: $1.80 (18 bb)
CO: $12.80 (128 bb)
BTN: $11.20 (112 bb)
Hero (SB): $10.55 (105.5 bb)
BB: $12.05 (120.5 bb)
UTG+1: $11.05 (110.5 bb)
MP1: $1.55 (15.5 bb)
MP2: $6.55 (65.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with A♥ K♣
UTG+1 calls $0.10, 3 folds, CO calls $0.10, BTN folds, Hero raises to $0.70, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60, CO folds

Flop: ($1.60) 2♥ 3♠ 6♠ (2 players)
Hero bets $1.10, UTG+1 calls $1.10

Turn: ($3.80) K♥ (2 players)
Hero ??[/quote]


ok here is my 2 pennies worth.

Preflop is fine. UNG+1 calls your raise with position.. but also does it with CO still to act. Here I would be thinking mid pair. Not AA, KK because he didnt raise preflop and not small pair either because of the CO still to actafter his call.

Its a high mid pair too. Maybe Ak, AQs.. unlikely to be low suited connectors but maybe a few of the higher ones.

So preflop I think he is ahead, but only slightly as AK isnt that much of an underdog to any pair.


Flop play I dont see the point of raising.

Your initial raise declares preflop strength.. high cards.

The flop is low, it is very likely that you missed this flop. so the flop bet looks just like a C-bet.

I would have thought it better to check call the flop.. thus forcing him to question what you have. Maybe eeven a 1/3 size raise as a defensive bet. My issue with the bet on the flop is that the flop looks to have missed you, soits far more liely that he feels he is still best, the c-bet here makes him think you are trying to win the pot there and then.

Also you are inflatinga potwell beond the size of your hand. At best you are hoping to hit a pair. A smaller bet here would have helped keep the pot under control.

There is also the possibility of a set of 6's .. ok its a loose preflop call but you are both fairly deepstacked.

The K then comes on the turn.. great, you are likely to have top pair here.. but the pot is now way to big to just bet and bet because if you are called, it will only be by a hand that has top pair covered.

Now if he has a mid pair, the K will likely scare him off.. so you wont profit by a bet here.. likewise if you check, he will assume that a K has scared you, so yo are forced to bet the turn either way.. the only way to realy get money in the pot here with any hand that cannot beat top pair, is to check and let him bet for you.

This does mean that the pot is now very big compared to your hand.. so after calling the turn.. I would be inclined to make a half pot raise on the river. You are unlikely to see showdown for free, but may be able to just get him to call the bet on the river.

As I said before, a smaller bet on the flop would have been better in terms of pot control, and this flop does not appear to have hit you due to betting into a pot preflop with multiple limpers and the fact you are out of position .. you really have to have high cards.

Stu_Ungar said:

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ok here is my 2 pennies worth.

Preflop is fine. UNG+1 calls your raise with position.. but also does it with CO still to act. Here I would be thinking mid pair. Not AA, KK because he didnt raise preflop and not small pair either because of the CO still to actafter his call.

Its a high mid pair too. Maybe Ak, AQs.. unlikely to be low suited connectors but maybe a few of the higher ones.

So preflop I think he is ahead, but only slightly as AK isnt that much of an underdog to any pair.


Flop play I dont see the point of raising.

Your initial raise declares preflop strength.. high cards.

The flop is low, it is very likely that you missed this flop. so the flop bet looks just like a C-bet.

I would have thought it better to check call the flop.. thus forcing him to question what you have. Maybe eeven a 1/3 size raise as a defensive bet. My issue with the bet on the flop is that the flop looks to have missed you, soits far more liely that he feels he is still best, the c-bet here makes him think you are trying to win the pot there and then.

Also you are inflatinga potwell beond the size of your hand. At best you are hoping to hit a pair. A smaller bet here would have helped keep the pot under control.

There is also the possibility of a set of 6's .. ok its a loose preflop call but you are both fairly deepstacked.

The K then comes on the turn.. great, you are likely to have top pair here.. but the pot is now way to big to just bet and bet because if you are called, it will only be by a hand that has top pair covered.

Now if he has a mid pair, the K will likely scare him off.. so you wont profit by a bet here.. likewise if you check, he will assume that a K has scared you, so yo are forced to bet the turn either way.. the only way to realy get money in the pot here with any hand that cannot beat top pair, is to check and let him bet for you.

This does mean that the pot is now very big compared to your hand.. so after calling the turn.. I would be inclined to make a half pot raise on the river. You are unlikely to see showdown for free, but may be able to just get him to call the bet on the river.

As I said before, a smaller bet on the flop would have been better in terms of pot control, and this flop does not appear to have hit you due to betting into a pot preflop with multiple limpers and the fact you are out of position .. you really have to have high cards.

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My raise pre flop is to ISO the Limper and see what he is limping in with 7BB pre flop is a good sign I have a big hand here so I have to Cbet this flop its sooo weak if I dont plus i think I have fold equity here (please help me I think I do )

It is a Cbet, if it looks like I have missed everytime I Cbet thats VERY cool cus if I hit them im going to get some serious $$ when I hit.

Also I make most of my money from cbetting, its just weak not to CBet that board. I then basically have to fold because he will more than likely bet because he sees the check as weakness.

I agree with the check turn however you sound like you are letting villian determine how you play the hand when we are the aggressor. If he chucks a bluff then your going to fold to this which seems pretty weak with TPTK.

thanks for your reply though.

WVHillbilly said:

You need to import them by going to Configure > Configure Stats. Select the Statistics Tab and the choose the Import button.
After that they will be available for use on your HUD or whatever (I think you may need to Update the Cache first).

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For some reason it doesnt get on with my HUD and the hud wont show up when the stats are included in my HUD.

Says there is a cache error when I update the cache.