[10NL FR] AK TPTK Facing Flop Bet

Villian here is 20/1/0 over 88 hands.

What is our flop line ?

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.05/$0.10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

UTG+1: $22.55 (225.5 bb)
MP1: $19.75 (197.5 bb)
MP2: $10.20 (102 bb)
Hero (MP3): $10.30 (103 bb)
CO: $9.90 (99 bb)
SB: $2.30 (23 bb)
BTN: $2.85 (28.5 bb)
SB: $9.90 (99 bb)
BB: $14.90 (149 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP3 with A:heart: K:club:
UTG+1 raises to $0.40, 2 folds, Hero raises to $1.35, 4 folds, BB calls $1.25, UTG+1 folds

Flop: ($3.20) 2:spade: A:diamond: Q:heart: (2 players)
BB bets $8.30, Hero ???

God I hate donk bets sometimes. Does a total passive player really shove a good hand here? I am 50/50 between calling and folding, and truthfully I would probably guess wrong either way. Without reads I call and make a note if the play if he has a set or two pair. FWIW

Edit: I did want to add in case it wasn't obvious that I would call and mke the note because a player that plays that way is so easily exploitable that is rediculous, as you will always have a great idea of if you are ahead or not if he shoves the nuts

As a gentle suggestion here and in all posts, it'd be helpful to have more info than just stats, although stats are extremely helpful. How often is he raising in EP? Have you seen him make huge overbets before? Have you seen you show down with top two and how did he play it? He must have won more than a few pots that you've seen since he has 149 BBs.

That said, pretty gross spot. When a player this passive is showing this much open aggression, it's probably better to sigh and just fold but I can't blame you for getting it in here.

Its hard to say what to do with such a big over bet but against a 20/1/0 I think I just fold.
I rarely think you'll see this kind of move If they only had AJ or worst and AQ, QQ, or maybe 22 are likely the hands you will see here.
The other possibility is they also have AK but still crazy to bet so much on a dry board.
At .05/.10 you might see someone just going crazy but with those stat even over 88 hands I cant see them making this move with just one pair.

When I played at these limits I would often overbet/shove top two pair because I got sick of how many big pots I would lose with flopped top two.

Without dead money in the pot (cold callers) I don't see a whole lot of reason to 3bet AKo against someone that is 20/1%= (QQ-AA) and raising under the gun. Just call in position imo

good point.

Richyl2008 said:

Without dead money in the pot (cold callers) I don't see a whole lot of reason to 3bet AKo against someone that is 20/1%= (QQ-AA) and raising under the gun. Just call in position imo

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If you think his range is actually QQ-AA just fold preflop. Any action you get after flatting on a flop containing an A or K is action you don't want. As played I want to fold but I probably call because I'm a huge station.

WVHillbilly said:

If you think his range is actually QQ-AA just fold preflop. Any action you get after flatting on a flop containing an A or K is action you don't want. As played I want to fold but I probably call because I'm a huge station.

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I was just saying that is what 1% represents. His range might not be that tight but it's tight nonetheless. Folding preflop might be a decent option, but i probably call anyway cause i ahs ak, maybe encourage some worse aces in the pot.

500th post btw,

Richyl2008 said:

Without dead money in the pot (cold callers) I don't see a whole lot of reason to 3bet AKo against someone that is 20/1%= (QQ-AA) and raising under the gun. Just call in position imo

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I have real difficulty playing AK and asked for advice earlier or reading material which I could have a look at and was suggested by belgosuisse to raise or fold pre flop and so probabaly shouldnt be calling.

However I do agree that AKo I am in future probably going to call I think its so over rated, maybe 3bet if its sooooooooooted but AKo is over rated IMO

Jurn8 said:

I have real difficulty playing AK and asked for advice earlier or reading material which I could have a look at and was suggested by belgosuisse to raise or fold pre flop and so probabaly shouldnt be calling.

However I do agree that AKo I am in future probably going to call I think its so over rated, maybe 3bet if its sooooooooooted but AKo is over rated IMO

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In general you should be 3betting ak the vast majority of the time, and raising it first in 100%. I just don't see much value in 3betting with it against the type of player that is only raising say, AK-JJ+ UTG for instance, since your equity against that range is about 50% at best and they aren't folding. This hand is a rare exception for me, although some may disagree

Jurn8 said:

I have real difficulty playing AK and asked for advice earlier or reading material which I could have a look at and was suggested by belgosuisse to raise or fold pre flop and so probabaly shouldnt be calling.

However I do agree that AKo I am in future probably going to call I think its so over rated, maybe 3bet if its sooooooooooted but AKo is over rated IMO

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Wrong thinking there Jake. Seriously both AKs and AKo are in my 10 ten winningest hands. I play them both very aggressively and I'm never afraid to play for stacks preflop with them. This can make AK a high variance hand and I'll often have large stretches where I lose a bunch of flips or get it in against AA/KK but in the long run AK is a strong hand and should be played as such.

Make sure you read the thread Chris_TC started on AK, especially the wonderful post by AJackson.

Flatting AK pf on a regular basis is without doubt gonna be a huge leak. The majority of profit with a hand like AK in FR is gonna be achieved from fold equity. Getting it aipf in FR is probably not gonna that profitable as I mentioned earlier I think if your playing against regs they're rarely getting aipf with anything less than QQ+. Against donks getting it aipf is fine I think.

But really you have to look at 3betting w/AK the majority of the time imo.

Flatting AK is terrible, agree with WV read AJackson's post(stox coach teaching a few of CC's best at the moment) and you will see why as he explains it 100x better than I could. Its in the strategy section I beleive.

Here for the record UTG raised and folded to the 3bet. Billian flatted in the BB so the 3bet was good. Any other reads on this guy would be huge, as in any hand he has shown down. Has he ever done this? has he ever slowplayed or shown down a monster in general. Without anything I probably fold, this board is too dry.

lol ok I kind of got killed in that idea then lol ! I will need to work with you on this then jay as im clueless how to play it tbh! And its by far my worst hand especially AKo losing me most of my money tbh. Also WV if you could enlighten me on how you play it that would be great.

WVHillbilly said:

If you think his range is actually QQ-AA just fold preflop. Any action you get after flatting on a flop containing an A or K is action you don't want. As played I want to fold but I probably call because I'm a huge station.

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I'd 3bet it just like you did and probably ship in my stack on this flop. Likely resulting in me losing a full stack and cursing loudly.

If it wasn't for this guy with a 1% preflop raise stat raising UTG, I'd be pretty damn happy to ship it here to this big overbet. You'll see these guys turn up A LOT worse than TPTK most of the time. By 3 betting you've created a good SPR (under 4) for getting all-in with TPTK, but his stats and the huge overbet are scary. **** it, I call.

Again, Villian is BB here and did not raise the entire hand.

widowmaker89 said:

Again, Villian is BB here and did not raise the entire hand.

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I'm sure if you say it one more time I'll hear you! Sorry I'm such an idiot.

This changes everything then. I'm actually pretty happy calling his overbet-shove in this case. If he has the nuts (2pair+) why isn't he letting us cbet? Just makes no sense. I call this every time and expect to win most of them.

when shall i release my play and the results?

theres 2 options here

snapcall fistpump when the kid turns over garbage

and

take a note on him when he turns over two pair+


seriously though your miles ahead of his range and it's just gonna suck when he wakes up with the top of it

Almost every time I see an openshove like this, or a huge overbet of this kind, it's some hand like A-7 that flopped top pair, or JJ that hates that the flop was so bad, and in some weird haze of confusion decides that shoving is the best play. The point is that two pairs and sets are relatively rare. And they often get slowplayed. This guy sure looks like he wants you to fold.

So don't.

I think it is time for the results and my play.

I shoved back over him because I only had like 40 cents left in my stack he called and showed ............ QQ for a set meh !!

Eh, sorry to hear it. Make a note on him that he overbetvalueshoves sets on ace high boards and doesn't 4-bet QQ OOP.

If it helps you sleep at night, you would have (SHOULD have) lost your stack almost regardless how this hand played out after the flop. In a 3-bet pot, it's very rare to find a fold on a relatively "safe" board like this one. I mean, you weren't going to fold to a normal-sized donk, you may well have c-bet the flop if he had checked, and almost regardless of how you play it, your money will be going in, and you'll lose.

In other words, it's a cooler. Shrug it off and move on.

F Paulsson said:

In other words, it's a cooler. Shrug it off and move on.

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+1

really not a hand you should worry around. Exchange cards with BB and you'll win his stack 99.999% of the time. So it's entirely part of the inherent variance of the game and has nothing to do with your or his poker skill, and will not affect your long term win rate in any way.

Its cool I respect variance and beats as they are going to happen just wanted to back up I made the correct decision. Thanks for all your input.

Jake