[10nl] Bottom Set vs. Donk Bet

The Shrog

The Shrog

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Stacks:
UTG+1 with $6.10
MP1 with $11.75
MP2 with $10.00
CO with $10.00
BTN with $2.35
SB with $10.60
BB with $10.55
UTG with $12.45



hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: Pokerstars
Dealt to CO:6♠ 6♦
Sklansky group 6
Preflop:
1 players fold.
UTG+1 calls [$0.10]
2 players fold.
Hero raises $0.40 to $0.50
3 players fold.
UTG+1 calls [$0.40]
Total folds this street: 6
Potsize: $1.15
Flop:
7♣ 8♥ 6♣
UTG+1 bets [$0.30]
Hero raises $0.90 to $1.20
UTG+1 calls [$0.90]
Potsize: $3.55
Turn:
Q♣
UTG+1 bets [$4.40] [ all-in ]

Bleh.
 
spranger

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I'd call, looks like he picked up some sort of combo draw on the turn, if he already has the flush I'm expecting him to value bet less to keep you in the hand. Plus there's still 10 cards to give you a house/quads incase you're wrong
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Snap call that shizzzz, but your real error was not raising the flop enough.

When he bets $0.3 there, a potsized raise becomes a raise to $2.05 which offers 2:1. When you raise to $1.20 you're offering 3:1. If he has a hand like 98, he has a ~4:1 draw. So with your small raise, and you're prolly offering some implied odds since its hard to fold sets, its not really that big of a mistake to call your small raise.

I'd pump his bet up to about $2.50, or even just jam all in. Fish are going to call you with a HUGE RANGE on this flop, and they're not going to fold draws at these limits. So charge them the maximum, because they will be calling.

And I call the turn shove because folding sets at 10$NL is bad.
 
bob_tiger

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I'm assuming you called, and I'm pretty sure villain has a set here thats probably why you posted this. Alright let's go over the hand and figure out his range. Any stats on the villain would help, so post those if you got them. At this level, when someone limps and then flats you can almost always assume they either have a mid pp and are set mining or if they are loose some sort of suited connectors. (stats would help to answer this). I would call this anyway just because of the weird shove on the turn by the villain but I think we are beat here.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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At this level, when someone limps and then flats you can almost always assume they either have a mid pp and are set mining or if they are loose some sort of suited connectors.
Wat? Fish limp WAAAAAYYYYY wider than that. If villain ends up having Q5 here I wouldn't be surprised at all.
 
The Shrog

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Ok, so re-raise size was bad. He snapped that, and then insta-shoved the turn btw.
 
bob_tiger

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Wat? Fish limp WAAAAAYYYYY wider than that. If villain ends up having Q5 here I wouldn't be surprised at all.

yea but after you raise, most of the time they fold because they get scared.I agree with the call, but I don't think villain's range is wide as Q5. Although I would of prolly raise little more like you said on that flop with the draws and shit.
 
pantin007

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yea but after you raise, most of the time they fold because they get scared.I agree with the call, but I don't think villain's range is wide as Q5. Although I would of prolly raise little more like you said on that flop with the draws and shit.
i think a fish is still calling with any 5 or 9 since that reraise was so small
i insta call
 
bob_tiger

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doesnt the turn shove tell us enuff? that he sucks at teh pokers

no not neccesarily, if this guy is good if he is thinking one level ahead of us which good players do, he shoves with a monster making us think he is on a draw while he really has a monster. I know we usually don't see a lot of players like this but there are some.
 
The Shrog

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Results remain hidden for a bit.
 
pantin007

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no not neccesarily, if this guy is good if he is thinking one level ahead of us which good players do, he shoves with a monster making us think he is on a draw while he really has a monster. I know we usually don't see a lot of players like this but there are some.
i think ur giving the average 10nl player too much credit
right now we cant treat him as a genius but as an average player and when the average player does this, we have them beat with bottom set
 
bob_tiger

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i think ur giving the average 10nl player too much credit
right now we cant treat him as a genius but as an average player and when the average player does this, we have them beat with bottom set

Ok You are right, I'm giving an average player too much credit but we can't leave out the flush possibility, I have seen so many people limp with say suited connectors and then flat after they get raised and also like daxter said he could easily have Q with a club kicker and he think he has the best hand. Like I said I have been for call the whole time but I'm just looking at every anlge possible.
 
kleitches

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When he bets $0.3 there, a potsized raise becomes a raise to $2.05 which offers 2:1. When you raise to $1.20 you're offering 3:1. If he has a hand like 98, he has a ~4:1 draw. So with your small raise, and you're prolly offering some implied odds since its hard to fold sets, its not really that big of a mistake to call your small raise.

I'd pump his bet up to about $2.50, or even just jam all in. Fish are going to call you with a HUGE RANGE on this flop, and they're not going to fold draws at these limits. So charge them the maximum, because they will be calling.

And I call the turn shove because folding sets at 10$NL is bad.

Isn't the pot only $1.15 pf? His $0.30 flop bet would make it $1.45, would it not? If it is, hero's $1.20 flop bet is still not a pot-sized bet, but I'm trying to see where you are getting how a pot-sized raise would be $2.05.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Isn't the pot only $1.15 pf? His $0.30 flop bet would make it $1.45, would it not? If it is, hero's $1.20 flop bet is still not a pot-sized bet, but I'm trying to see where you are getting how a pot-sized raise would be $2.05.

because calling villain's bet makes the pot $1.75, then we need to add another $1.75 to the $0.3 to make it pot sized, which means a pot sized raise
is $2.05.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Also, iirc, overbet shoving the nuts is standard at 10nl. So you really can't rule out villain has a flush, even if he's not a fish
 
kleitches

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because calling villain's bet makes the pot $1.75, then we need to add another $1.75 to the $0.3 to make it pot sized, which means a pot sized raise
is $2.05.

Gotcha. To make it simpler, would raising 3x villian's flop bet + pot = pot sized raise always?
 
kleitches

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Belgo, I found this hand on another thread and need some help figuring out the pot-sized raise amount:

BB: $6.10 (61 bb)
UTG: $11 (110 bb)
Hero (MP): $10.65 (106.5 bb)
CO: $10.85 (108.5 bb)
BTN: $15.75 (157.5 bb)
SB: $10.10 (101 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP with A
diamond.gif
A
club.gif

UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 3 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.55) 2
spade.gif
T
diamond.gif
5
spade.gif
(3 players)
BB bets $0.30, UTG calls $0.30, Hero raises to $2.50

It was said in the analysis of this hand that Hero made a raise that was larger than the pot-size. Normally I would agree, since usually I would just add the BB's bet and UTG call ($0.60) + the pot size on the flop ($1.55) for a total of $2.15. But using the way we discussed above, his amount is not a pot-sized raise, right? Calling here would mean the pot would be $2.45. So to make a pot-sized raise, wouldn't he have to bump it up to $2.75 here? Or am I way off? Can we use the above formula as a standard way to make a pot-sized raise, or does it depend on how many players are in the hand?
 
BelgoSuisse

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Belgo, I found this hand on another thread and need some help figuring out the pot-sized raise amount:

BB: $6.10 (61 bb)
UTG: $11 (110 bb)
Hero (MP): $10.65 (106.5 bb)
CO: $10.85 (108.5 bb)
BTN: $15.75 (157.5 bb)
SB: $10.10 (101 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is MP with A
diamond.gif
A
club.gif

UTG calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.50, 3 folds, BB calls $0.40, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.55) 2
spade.gif
T
diamond.gif
5
spade.gif
(3 players)
BB bets $0.30, UTG calls $0.30, Hero raises to $2.50

It was said in the analysis of this hand that Hero made a raise that was larger than the pot-size. Normally I would agree, since usually I would just add the BB's bet and UTG call ($0.60) + the pot size on the flop ($1.55) for a total of $2.15. But using the way we discussed above, his amount is not a pot-sized raise, right? Calling here would mean the pot would be $2.45. So to make a pot-sized raise, wouldn't he have to bump it up to $2.75 here? Or am I way off? Can we use the above formula as a standard way to make a pot-sized raise, or does it depend on how many players are in the hand?

Pot sized here is $2.75. What really matters to define a pot-sized raise is that villain gets 2:1 odds on calling the raise.

Easy formula is as follows: look at what's in the pot when it gets to you - here's it's $1.55+0.3+0.3=$2.15, then add twice what you would need to flat call, here it's 2x$0.3=$0.6, so pot-sized is $2.15+0.6=$2.75.

Easier still, play on a site like FTP when you can hit a "pot" button that computes this for you. :D
 
kleitches

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Ah, this is where AHK scripts on pokerstars may come in handy!

P.S. Thanks for always replying to my posts in like 0.001536 seconds. I can always count on you for fast and efficient poker knowledge. :D
 
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