[100NL HU] Rivered Top 2 vs Minraise

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bw07507

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Villain has been fairly passive postflop so far, but not too many hands in and I don't have any real reads. Should I be reraising this for value or just flat calling here?

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 2 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (BB): $273.50 (273.5 bb)
SB: $103.65 (103.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with J
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Q
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SB raises to $3, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($6) 8
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6
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Q
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(2 players)
Hero checks, SB checks

Turn: ($6) 5
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(2 players)
Hero bets $3.50, SB calls $3.50

River: ($13) J
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(2 players)
Hero bets $10, SB raises to $20, Hero ?
 
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feitr

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If i didn't have an idea of the outcome (ie. you probably didn't post this because you raised and villain called with worse) i'd value shove this vs relative unknowns everytime. There are just so many weaker 2 pair hands that won't fold here and the only thing villain is representing is JJ that got there on the river, which is unlikely give we would have to have the case J or 79 that didn't bet an OESD on the flop nor raise on the turn, or a super super slowplayed set. With reads that villain slow plays all his monsters etc. maybe you could play this differently but results oriented aside i'd value shove this because i expect to be ahead of most of villain's range and i don't expect villain to be folding any 2 pair hand here ever. Villain would have to have played this very tricky (aka bad) or sucked out with JJ to be ahead so shoving here is always +EV imo. And if villain slowplays all the time/tries to get tricky he could even show up here with something like AA.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Disclaimer: C9 doesn't believe in heads up hold'em, or Santa.

3-betting the river with a hand that's 2 hand classes away from the nuts (trips, straight) seems a bit thin. However, I shove this river because its not my money ;)
 
JimmyBrizzy

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I might min 3-bet this guy. If he has a set or straight he kinda played it weird and missed some value, so oh well. But HU, top 2 is a pretty strong hand and I'd want to get as much money as I could squeeze out of it.

I think there are a ton of other combo's that call your min raise, other 2-pairs, Qx, mid-pairs like 99's and 10's might do this and more possible are KK's and AA's which definitely played it a little differently than most would.

Not sure about a shove, whether or not he only calls with hands that beat you is hard to tell only a few hands in.

I figure min-bet you get a lot more call's out of hands that were just kind of weak holdings or close to bluffs and if he 4-bets you really large you can possibly get away, although I'm not sure I have the power to fold this....
 
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feitr

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Disclaimer: C9 doesn't believe in heads up hold'em, or Santa.

3-betting the river with a hand that's 2 hand classes away from the nuts (trips, straight) seems a bit thin. However, I shove this river because its not my money ;)

Well good HU play is all about thin value. I've value shoved > 100bbs more with top 2 overtop of a pot sized river donk even tho an OESD (and villain had also donked flop) got there on the river...more of villain's hands were weighted towards hands that wouldn't find a fold but that i still beat. Some players you can almost stack off with second pair they will call you so lightly due to image etc. HU is all about out leveling your opponent. It is the reason crazy lags can do so well at HU--they can value bet so thin. Instead of polarising ranges to monsters/bluffs, good LAGS can like value shove rivers with 2nd pair vs some villain's because their hand looks so much like a bluff that villain levels himself into a call with teh whole "polarized range...either monster or bluffs and there are more bluffs out there".

Course this is besides the point with no reads, but if villain plays a monster this badly then he is likely they'll show up with alot of random crap imo.

I might min 3-bet this guy. If he has a set or straight he kinda played it weird and missed some value, so oh well. But HU, top 2 is a pretty strong hand and I'd want to get as much money as I could squeeze out of it.

I think there are a ton of other combo's that call your min raise, other 2-pairs, Qx, mid-pairs like 99's and 10's might do this and more possible are KK's and AA's which definitely played it a little differently than most would.

Not sure about a shove, whether or not he only calls with hands that beat you is hard to tell only a few hands in.

I figure min-bet you get a lot more call's out of hands that were just kind of weak holdings or close to bluffs and if he 4-bets you really large you can possibly get away, although I'm not sure I have the power to fold this....

qx/99/tt etc don't play like this and villain isn't min raising river then folding 2 pair or something to a shove. Making a small 3 bet is pointless because you are either ahead or behind of villain's range. If you are ahead then go for max value because villain really isn't folding much to a shove here and if you are behind then you flat call. Making a small 3B then folding to a 4B shove just loses us value from villain's good, but weaker hands, and we are spewing off money when folding to a 4B (if villain's range is weighted towards monsters) by not flat calling (ie. we are trying to extract min value from the small portion of villain's range that we beat and spewing off money vs the rest of his range) and potentially folding the best hand if villain can value shove 2 pair here (which we can't know without reads). That is like no man's land line and doesn't really make any sense vs any range villain could have unless villain is raising river very lightly and will only pay off a min 3B with his trash (which would just make no sense given his line...do you actually think villain is checking back TT here then min raising the river when there are now 2 overcards and calling a 3B?).
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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I might min 3-bet
I agree with Feitr here. After villain min-raises the river, he loves his hand, and he's never folding. Either shove if you think his range is weaker than ours, or flat if you think its stronger.
 
kadafi

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If you think your hand is good then calling is the wrong option. You either raise if you think you have him or fold if you think your beat because calling will lose you money in the longterm if your hand is good.

If your really not sure then i suppose you might be able to flat call.
 
dsvw56

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vs. an unknown I value shove this all day. After he raises, he's virtually never folding unless it's a stone cold bluff, in which case you're not losing any value anyways. I just don't see this being a straight, why would he not C-bet after flopping an OESD on an otherwise relatively harmless board. If he slow played a set, hunt him down and prepare to take all his money, because he's obviously horrible. I see this being weaker two pairs way more often than straights and sets.
 
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i think a call is good here, even if he may call u if u shove with worse two pair... but calling is i think my preferred action, simply cause u dont have a lot of reads, u are probably still gonna win the pot, ur gonna see what he had and how he played which is maybe the most useful of all.....
 
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bw07507

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I was playing 2 tables at the time and I really without even thinking just flat called here. Villain flipped J5 and not reraising here is a huge mistake I think. I have a lot of trouble 2-tabling HU games and if I play in the future I think I will just stick to 1.
 
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feitr

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It is pretty easy to do (play 2 tables) once you get a little used to it. But it is essential that you don't go over your comfort level # tables in HU...i tried playing 3 during one session and played like absolute crap and had a really big losing session because i just couldn't keep up (+ run bad + tilt).

So muhc of your profit will come from spots like this if you are pretty aggro tho. After a while i think all my sessions have me looking pretty bluffy, and once villain starts to call down lighter i just adjust and make plays like value overshoving 2 pair (even somewhat thinly at times) because i know villain is in no mood to give me respect nor fold any somewhat decent hand especially when my play looks bluffy. And when some guys start calling down really light, you can get extremely thin value from guys willing to call you down with 3rd pair or a high etc, and since your hand doesn't look all that strong they still probably think you are trying to bluff them. These guys just aren't able to adjust to your adjustments well at all.
 
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