[100NL FR] I fold KK preflop good fold or am I just a p****y

Villain is 12/11 here but he has a 45% att to steal so his UTG range is tight. Me and him have some 3betting history, but I mean, does he ever do this without AA here? He's raising UTG and I am 3betting him from the BB + We are both deep here too.

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

BTN: $108.10 (108.1 bb)
SB: $93 (93 bb)
Hero (BB): $169.80 (169.8 bb)
UTG+1: $202.95 (203 bb)
MP1: $153.55 (153.6 bb)
MP2: $98.50 (98.5 bb)
MP3: $204.85 (204.9 bb)
CO: $96.85 (96.9 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K:spade: K:club:
UTG+1 raises to $4, 6 folds, Hero raises to $14, UTG+1 raises to $41, Hero folds

Results:[spoil] $28.50 pot
UTG+1 mucked and won $28.50 ($14.50 net)
[/spoil]

You are a pansy. That's what the word with the stars in it is, right?

First instinct: You are a yellow bellied chicken!

Second instinct: Wow he is tight. What does he do this with other than AK AA KK or QQ.

Third instinct: Holy crap both of you are deep. If you flat this and even if the flop is all rags, you're still in a big question-mark spot. So calling/finding out how the flop goes isn't a great place to be, especially if its rags and he shoves.

talked to bw in aim about this and basically said it's really sick and one of the closest spots i could get to folding KK preflop

a) we're 170 BBs deep
b) villain's opening range here is pretty damn tight
c) i honestly don't even think he would 4bet QQ here (it'd be a mistake because we'd instamuck JJ), and if he's one of those nits who can't fold AK, he miiiight 4bet it, but i think he'd make the bet larger, assuming that's likely at all

i honestly don't fault a fold here, but i'd cram it to verify my read that he has AA ala negreanu

icemonkey9 said:

Second instinct: Wow he is tight. What does he do this with other than AK AA KK or QQ.

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You do realize that KK is ahead of this range right? 57-43 he's ahead of this range, and that doesn't even count odds because of the money in the pot already. The problem is that the occaisional QQ doesn't call the shove and neither does AK.

Anyone else a fan of flatting preflop? With such a tight UTG range if we're going to fold KK to a 4-bet, we basically turn our hand into a bluff. Do we have enough equity against hands that will flat a 3-bet? Does the FE we get against Ax hands (basically AK and MAYBE AQ) make up for the lost value in raise-folding here?

# of hands on the player ? what are your stats? whats your 3bet%?

move to 6 max so you dont have to deal with 12/11's

Fermion5 said:

# of hands on the player ? what are your stats? whats your 3bet%?

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this

# of hands on the player ? what are your stats? whats your 3bet%?

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I have 700 hands on this player

His stats are 12/11/3.0 - 43% att to steal, 3.2% 3bet, 56% fold to 3bet

I run ~17/15/2 with a 40% att to steal and a 5-6% 3bet

bw07507 said:

I have 700 hands on this player

His stats are 12/11/3.0 - 43% att to steal, 3.2% 3bet, 56% fold to 3bet

I run ~17/15/2 with a 40% att to steal and a 5-6% 3bet

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I don't mind the fold then. I think it's close, but may well be on the winning side of the equity calculations. I'm not sure I could have gotten myself to fold while playing the hand, but with distance to the situation I can definitely see the argument.

Consider it an Annie Duke moment (reference her Full Tilt Commercials).

Very true--but the Annie Duke moment does come post flop with an Ace on the flop-- This is all pre flop and a different situation. I doubt he had Aces-- he could've had JJ or QQ as I've seen some pretty tigh players shove with these. I remember a quote from somewhere: "There are two ways to play pocket jacks: all-in or fold."

The thing is he could've put you on AK and WAS trying to bet you out of it thinking his JJ or QQ was ahead and would rather steal the pot or make the race on the flop worth a lot.

Pssst. It's Jen Harman, not Annie Duke, you're thinking of.

Luckylmn3 said:

The thing is he could've put you on AK and WAS trying to bet you out of it thinking his JJ or QQ was ahead and would rather steal the pot or make the race on the flop worth a lot.

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A 12/11'er 4 betting JJ? This is very unlikely isn't it?

A fold isn't bad. Flatting isn't bad either. Shoving is absolutely horrible, IMO. If you shove, I'd figure his calling range would be AA and KK. That's it. All that a shove does is price out AK, which is pretty unlikely that he'd 4-bet OOP given how tight he is.

With that reliable a sample set, I think I'm leaning towards fold. If I were to flat, I'd check-fold if an ace or a queen showed up (unless there's also a king). Otherwise, I'd get it all-in on the flop.

Edit: Maybe not all-in. I forgot how much you'd still have left. If he bet I'd shove, but if he checks, I might bet smaller.

I like flatting the 3 bet vs a very tight player like this and controlling the pot given how deep you are. If the stacks were more shallow (<100 BB), I think you cannot go wrong getting AI pre.

I probably fold here.

I folded KK once at 200NL full-ring when I opened UTG to 4x, another villain in MP raised to $32, and another guy behind him (no stats) made it the minimum 4-bet. I turbomucked there, they ended up showing down QQ vs AA.

No comments yet on whether anyone likes a flat to his initial raise? If we're folding here is there not merit to flatting preflop and playing a flop in position?

well surely he calls the 3bet with worse hands, so there's plenty of value in it and that alone is merit to 3betting, since we're deep-ish and want to build a pot with the 2nd nuts. i think him flatting the 3bet in position is going to happen quite a bit more frequently than him 4betting, but when this does happen i suppose it sucks.

of course, the only way it doesn't suck is if we can reach a certain level of confidence that the 4bet is AA and fold. if that were the case, 3betting would achieve the best of both worlds

as uncertain as we are in this particular situation, i can't hate flatting the initial raise, but it seems like we'll be missing a lot of value pretty often. OP stated that we do have some 3betting history

I haven't played all that long, but I would never back away/fold KK preflop.

Who knows, maybe you made the right call. But I would have to see that ace fly on the flop before I backed down. And if he hit (or was holdin bullets) - I could ALMOST deal with it, knowing I did what I thought had to be done...

There are some positions I'd fold my KK preflop but I still don't think the guy was holding bullets.

combuboom said:

well surely he calls the 3bet with worse hands

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Really? What hands? QQ MAYBE? AK sure isn't flatting when he shows such strength and it kinda sucks to play oop. When such a nit raises from EP bw reps extreme strength when 3-betting. I'm not sure there is any hand that flats this 3-bet. It would suck to play any of those hands oop against someone who has repped such strength.

zachvac said:

Really? What hands? QQ MAYBE? AK sure isn't flatting when he shows such strength and it kinda sucks to play oop. When such a nit raises from EP bw reps extreme strength when 3-betting. I'm not sure there is any hand that flats this 3-bet. It would suck to play any of those hands oop against someone who has repped such strength.

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He can (and sometimes will) call a 3-bet with a hand that wants to play for implied odds (such as 88-QQ, occasional suited connectors, and even sometimes AK because people don't raise/fold AK preflop), assuming that he opens with those hands originally, given the depth of stacks. If he's as tight with his opening range from UTG as bw says, though, you can pretty much do anything preflop and it will suck (including calling the open-raise from BB and playing KK so deep OOP, against a decent player).

vanquish said:

If he's as tight with his opening range from UTG as bw says, though, you can pretty much do anything preflop and it will suck (including calling the open-raise from BB and playing KK so deep OOP, against a decent player).

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Jeez, exaggerate much? You'd have to put him on only AA/KK to make that a good fold. His stats do not indicate nearly that much tightness. Even his 3-bet range looks like AA-JJ, AK, and maybe some AQ and TT (very by situation). I have to imagine his UTG+1 range is looser than his 3-bet range. Plus, you're calling from the BB, so he should put you on a pretty wide range.

As for just flatting the initial raise, I generally prefer that move when I'm in position. In that case, I'm looking to have my opponent bleed chips due to his positional disadvantage and his perception of my weakness. I don't know what line we'd take out of position if the flop is blank. Do we check-call down? I like this line is better when in position, because you're more likely to face a river bet from a worse hand. If you're out of position, he may choose to check down the river. Maybe betting down for value would be better. That might confuse his jacks or queens enough to get him to call down. The problem with that approach is if he decides to raise a overpair, you're in nearly the same situation you were in preflop. The only difference is that you're slightly more likely to double up against QQ, but you're slightly more likely to stack off versus AA. In short, playing OOP is a b!tch, so I prefer to play my hands more for preflop value, where I'm not at a positional disadvantage.

BTW, I made a mistake earlier when I said villain is OOP. Whoops!