[100nl FR] AQs top pair and nut flush draw

MP3 is unknown. BTN is a reg 14/9 and aggressive. I've never seen him do anything particularly daft but he'll stab at pots.

What's are the merits of the various options and what is your standard line here?

(assume the checked flop, though I see a decent line with a bet there as well)

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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
CO: $223.25 (223.3 bb)
BTN: $100 (100 bb)
Hero (SB): $100 (100 bb)
BB: $151.45 (151.5 bb)
UTG+1: $100.40 (100.4 bb)
MP1: $150.30 (150.3 bb)
MP2: $100 (100 bb)
MP3: $143.95 (144 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with Q A
3 folds, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, BTN raises to $6, Hero calls $5.50, BB folds, MP3 calls $5, CO folds
Flop: ($20) 7 4 A (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, BTN bets $15 Irexes????

I like 3-betting preflop from the small blind, especially against a reg. It allows you to play a hand like this much more aggressively on the flop in a 3-bet pot. It also allows you to play the pot heads up, which is a huge advantage. Otherwise, you allow those limpers to enter the pot. Not to mention that the reg is probably punishing limpers with a wide range on the button.

As played, if you call here, the turn will be a 50$ pot, with $79 behind. Kind of an awkward stack to pot ratio. Against an aggressive reg who can fold stuff like AK, I just check/bomb all in.

A check/min-raise isn't bad either. It leaves you with $64 behind with an $80 pot, and will likely get called by worse than bombing all in would. And usually min-raises are pretty bad, since they price draws in, but that's actually what you want in this scenario (since your draw dominates).

I prob call.

I like flat calling the flop. Your hand is way ahead or slightly behind. I think raising is going to fold out almost all of the "way ahead" range and none of the "slightly behind" range (I'm not as optimistic as c9 that he might fold AK to a shove). Also, MP3 is still in the hand, and with the nut draw I want him to come along if possible. After flat calling, my turn line is to check-raise all-in, as any decent sized bet would be pot committing for both hero and villain. There's no scare card on the turn. Worst card would probably be a jack, and that's not scary enough to stop me from shoving the turn.

The only issue with jamming the turn is that our equity decreases against that "slightly behind" range. We do have less fold equity though (which is a good thing against AJ, ect.)... Any reads on MP3? If he's a fish, calling certainly becomes more attractive.

Yeah, c/r turn is cool because a lot of people will make "committing" bets and then still end up folding (esp. at .5/1).

vanquish said:

Yeah, c/r turn is cool because a lot of people will make "committing" bets and then still end up folding (esp. at .5/1).

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What bets the turn & folds to a shove on a blank that doesn't fold to a flop c/bomb? The main argument for c/bombing the turn is to get AJ/AT to price themselves in right? Not to mention most regs are checking those hands back on the turn anyways...

Nothing at all on MP3. I don't see BTN stacking with AT AJ here (very often) however it develops, and he's good enough to lay TPTK when appropriate.

i flat flop for sure. if you raise you'll often be folding out medium-strength aces you beat and mostly getting action from sets and AK, which is of course counterintuitive. since he's 14/9 and iso-ing PF, that makes it really unlikely he flopped some kind of draw, and that severely discounts the only merit to raising-- to try to get it in vs. a draw you crush

plus you love it if MP3 calls behind with any draw. if you raise they most likely fold it unless its one of the unlikely combo draws

Lalalala, I suck at poker today, ignore everything I say cuz I'm dumb.

Am I the only one that likes leading this flop ? I think it has a lot of merits especially with MP3 stuck between the PF raiser.

I like leading the flop a fair amount of the time

tenbob said:

Am I the only one that likes leading this flop ? I think it has a lot of merits especially with MP3 stuck between the PF raiser.

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I actually love leading the flop in spots like this if MP3 is somewhat of a fish. Go for a bet/3-bet all-in and get some overlay from the middleman.

i'd like it if MP3 is a fish who calls too much and if we had a hand like 56 of spades. as it is, i don't like leading here much at all

what do you expect btn to raise us with? huugely doubtful he would with AJ, even in that fluke instance he'd probably fold to the 3b. so again, same problem as check/raising to begin with, we get the $ in against a bad range and pretty much turn our hand into nothing but a flush draw (with possibly 3 Q outs)

tenbob said:

Am I the only one that likes leading this flop ? I think it has a lot of merits especially with MP3 stuck between the PF raiser.

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I don't like it but I don't know if I'm being rational.
Put the btn on AK. You lead - he calls. Turn misses. You....? if you check - you let him price you off your juicy draw. So why is it different if you check call the flop? Does a check/call on the flop and check on the turn look stronger or weaker than a lead on the flop and a check on the turn. I think stronger (and therefore more likely to get a smaller bet from the btn on the turn)- but I cant quite rationalize why.

c9h13no3 said:

What bets the turn & folds to a shove on a blank that doesn't fold to a flop c/bomb? The main argument for c/bombing the turn is to get AJ/AT to price themselves in right? Not to mention most regs are checking those hands back on the turn anyways...

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I don't know what a c/bomb is, but the point is that people will double barrel a ton of non-A hands (and that makes up a lot of their range), so you get the additional value of getting a turn bet out of those hands. Also c/r flop overreps our hand and will get villain to fold a lot of hands we beat, and ones he will barrel the turn with (Trust me, there are plenty of those.). Besides, even if villain checks AJ back on the turn, we get river value out of it.

Do you have any positional stats on BTN? I mean, he's 14/9, but that could be evenly spread over all positions or i could mean he is 3/3 from EP and 40/25 from BTN. Changes a lot the assumptions we can make about his range. Mostly down to which kicker does he isolate limpers from BTN?

I think i like calling flop here, especially if it gets MP3 to stick around. Check turn, CRAI if he bets, bet river if he checks back.

3 bet pre for value, BTN is isolating farely wide vs MP limpers

FWIW calling flop is game theoretically a lot better than raising to try to get it in while we have "a lot of equity."

I would of definately just made a call there and hoped to get lucky on the flop or if in positgion tried to steal te pot after the flop..

3 bet preflop is a pretty good decision here, it didnt work out as well as you liked but - its the luck of the cards

As much as you all may like this hand and figure its either a leading / limp hand, I think hes in a tough spot, its probable that button hit a pocket, and a set on the flop. In wich case, although you might dominate with a flush, you won't necesserely see it.

I think I would call here, I would allow myself to see another card, and I definatly see MP3 following.

Problem is if you hit a flush, and MP3 did not have a flush draw, your in a tough spot, because he will fold for sure, so I don't know really... I'd be more safe and call it, but maybe I would get less value out of my hand...


Funnyer is if you hit your flush with a 8 of spade, even though its doubtful one would hold 56 of spade, maybe MP3 has it

viking999 said:

I like flat calling the flop. Your hand is way ahead or slightly behind. I think raising is going to fold out almost all of the "way ahead" range and none of the "slightly behind" range (I'm not as optimistic as c9 that he might fold AK to a shove). Also, MP3 is still in the hand, and with the nut draw I want him to come along if possible. After flat calling, my turn line is to check-raise all-in, as any decent sized bet would be pot committing for both hero and villain. There's no scare card on the turn. Worst card would probably be a jack, and that's not scary enough to stop me from shoving the turn.

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combuboom said:

i flat flop for sure. if you raise you'll often be folding out medium-strength aces you beat and mostly getting action from sets and AK, which is of course counterintuitive. since he's 14/9 and iso-ing PF, that makes it really unlikely he flopped some kind of draw, and that severely discounts the only merit to raising-- to try to get it in vs. a draw you crush

plus you love it if MP3 calls behind with any draw. if you raise they most likely fold it unless its one of the unlikely combo draws

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Um...the last few posts here were pretty sad forms of analysis... I think I'd have to agree with Combu and Viking. Not sure you can get all that much more value out of worse hands unless you do play it passively on the flop.

Honestly not sure what your move is if you hit the flush on the turn...I feel like a bet is obvious and will just fold out both (unless MP is really dumb, or someone has hit his flush too...which I'm not sure BTN is betting with KQs or suited cards when he could have had a free card.)

Thanks for the replies so far, very interesting.

Here's the hand and some more questions

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
CO: $223.25 (223.3 bb)
BTN: $100 (100 bb)
Hero (SB): $100 (100 bb)
BB: $151.45 (151.5 bb)
UTG+1: $100.40 (100.4 bb)
MP1: $150.30 (150.3 bb)
MP2: $100 (100 bb)
MP3: $143.95 (144 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with Q A
3 folds, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, BTN raises to $6, Hero calls $5.50, BB folds, MP3 calls $5, CO folds
Flop: ($20) 7 4 A (3 players)
Hero checks, MP3 checks, BTN bets $15

Scenario 1: I call MP3 folds, and the 2spades hits the turn.

If I lead the flush board does it cool action too much, have I lost my chance to get value?

If I check am I looking to reraise shove? But am I inviting a check behind which costs me value?

Scenario 2: I call MP3 folds, and 2diamonds hits the turn.

If I lead the blank turn, have I got to keep the pot smaller because my equity has reduced with only 1 card to come? Can I/should I fold if raised large?

Does checking the blank turn become the only real viable option because I'd like to see the river cheap and keep the pot small?


I'm first to act on the turn, what's the plan?



I'll post what actually happened when all is said and done, but I'd like to explore and how you all approach these types of hands and with what goal in mind.

Scenario 1: I call MP3 folds, and the 2spades hits the turn.

Check. I don't think you give up much value... he's not likely to check behind with hands he would have clled a bet with.


Scenario 2: I call MP3 folds, and 2diamonds hits the turn.

Check. Yes I think it's only viable option. You can't make a better hand fold.