100nl 6mx - JJ is 4bet oop

Jagsti

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
5,478
Chips
0
Ok, villain is Zach, and he hasn't been at the table long. I've been lagging it up on most of my tables, But I've been caught out once or twice on this table. Zach has probably witnessed this, but maybe not the fact Im playing like 28/25/3 on this table yet.

Anyways given the action, what hand range are we putting Zach on? Are we happy getting it in here?

pokerstars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players

party poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

SB: $135.80
Hero (BB): $100.65
UTG: $100
CO: $103.50
BTN: $158.75

Pre-Flop: J
spadenormal.gif
J
diamondnormal.gif
dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG folds, CO raises to $3, BTN folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero raises to $10.50, CO raises to $33, SB folds, Hero?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Zach knows that you know about 3-betting light, so he's going to be 4-bet bluffing with a fair frequency. Additionally, he bet an amount that allows him not to be pot committed. You were also squeezing, which is a bit different.

I have no problem shoving here, but Zach will prolly only look you up with JJ+/AK+, maybe AQ. Either way, you don't stack up too well against that range, but he'll probably fold often enough to make it profitable.

Anyone think there's merit to flatting and donking just about any flop (to get it in)?
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
oooh cc'er vs cc'er hands....

We could get into multi-leveling here. He knows you could be squeezing wide, but you could know that and could be squeezing only premiums here knowing that he might 4bet light. Then he might know that...

Bottom line is it looks like you have a bad image and a hand that's at the top of your range given the situation. I shove.

Squeeze way bigger btw, like $13-14
 
icemonkey9

icemonkey9

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 17, 2008
Total posts
3,023
Chips
0
Zach is an aggressive machine that takes no prisoners and will 3bet you and your grandmother. Seriously if this is me, I'd probably raise it again, that was my strategy against him HU - just play his aggression against him. Are we seeing some sort of AQ type of hand here from Zach?
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Chips
0
WOW, are you serious (this is in reference to OP and actual hand, not anything anyone said)

btw Chuck also I think when talking about multi-level thinking I also know that he's going to think it's light, so I'd have a hard time having a super-wide range, but on the other hand he could be thinking that I'd be thinking this so to counter that I'd widen it, etc.

Basically is there any proof that villain is thinking strictly on that level or is it possible he's one step higher and has a narrow range because he assumes Jagsti is thinking like Chuck is talking about here?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 26, 2007
Total posts
9,218
Chips
0
Bad table selection trumps any other consideration here. What the hell are you guys doing sitting at the same table? Not enough 100NL 6max on PS ?
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
What was your thinking when you decided to 3-bet?
 
Chris_TC

Chris_TC

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 11, 2007
Total posts
925
Chips
0
I don't know what style Zach plays but versus most TAGs and versus unknowns I'd usually fold.

Edit: sorry, I must have skipped the part where you mentioned you've been playing LAG. In that case it's a shove.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
5,478
Chips
0
WOW, are you serious (this is in reference to OP and actual hand, not anything anyone said)

LOLZ, I know I feel pretty bad now I come to think about it :D


Bad table selection trumps any other consideration here. What the hell are you guys doing sitting at the same table? Not enough 100NL 6max on PokerStars ?

Ditto this imfo! But it was fun while it lasted.

What was your thinking when you decided to 3-bet?

I'm thinking he's probably raising a wide range here i/p. I'm oop and I would like to get some value out of my hand on the flop. I don't consider calling coz his range is so wide and I'm playing a hand oop. So a raise here hopefully gets him to call with marginal stuff in a raised pot.

If he 4bets me, then I'm sorta getting into multi level thinking now and start to out think myself.

I know he raises here with wide range, I 3bet, He knows I 3bet light at, times. He 4bet's, now this is were I'm thinking he can 4bet bluff, but he know's I know that too, so that's why he's 4betting me here b/c it's not a bluff. LOL, thats my theory and I make the weakest of weak folds, and my coach was correct in his assumption that I'm weak/tight lol :rolleyes:.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
Just want to reiterate the bet sizing. Squeezing to $12-14 commits you more and keeps you from outleveling yourself into folding, which imo is bad here. When zach opens and random guy flats in the middle, you should be thinking 'perfect squeeze spot and I'm playing for stacks'.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
5,478
Chips
0
Just want to reiterate the bet sizing. Squeezing to $12-14 commits you more and keeps you from outleveling yourself into folding, which imo is bad here. When zach opens and random guy flats in the middle, you should be thinking 'perfect squeeze spot and I'm playing for stacks'.

Well Chuck I take on board the advice re bet size, this is also something I was told in my video review. And my initial thoughts was that I would be playing for stacks, thats why the 4bet threw me a little coz I'm thinking he knows what I'm thinking so wtf is he 4betting for lol.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
lol

What degree do you guys think cc'ers change their game when they meet up randomly in rings like this vs when we have those crazy holecards up games? Like the other day I played with you jay, but I didn't really go nuts or anything. I think I 3bet you light once, but that's it.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
5,478
Chips
0
lol

What degree do you guys think cc'ers change their game when they meet up randomly in rings like this vs when we have those crazy holecards up games? Like the other day I played with you jay, but I didn't really go nuts or anything. I think I 3bet you light once, but that's it.

Lol, only once ;).

Yep those games get pretty crazy, so in that respect maybe zach had a decent holding here, maybe not. Come on Zach out yourself with the 4bet bluff plz :D.
 
F

feitr

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Total posts
1,570
Chips
0
$10 would be what you should be a typically 3bet size with no cold caller. When i squeeze i normally double the money in the pot or thereabouts (so $14 or $15).

speaking of which, what ever happened to that hands up game we played at nl25?

Btw, i'd be suprised if zach was 4 bet bluffing here, as his 4 bet sizing is so large that he really isn't getting good odds to bluff you. Looks like an ak type of hand to me, but i doubt it is ever a monster like qq+ just based on bet sizing, which might be completely off since i have no idea on what level you guys are thinking.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
Lol, only once ;).

Just the one. It was a really bad one though :)

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $15.30 (15.3 bb)
BTN: $182.40 (182.4 bb)
SB: $67.90 (67.9 bb)
Hero (BB): $101.50 (101.5 bb)
UTG: $166.05 (166.1 bb)
MP: $48.45 (48.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with 9
spade.gif
5
diamond.gif

3 folds, BTN raises to $3.50, SB folds, Hero raises to $12, BTN folds


Yeah did anyone ever end up altering the HHs??
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
I'm thinking he's probably raising a wide range here i/p. I'm oop and I would like to get some value out of my hand on the flop. I don't consider calling coz his range is so wide and I'm playing a hand oop. So a raise here hopefully gets him to call with marginal stuff in a raised pot.

If he 4bets me, then I'm sorta getting into multi level thinking now and start to out think myself.

I know he raises here with wide range, I 3bet, He knows I 3bet light at, times. He 4bet's, now this is were I'm thinking he can 4bet bluff, but he know's I know that too, so that's why he's 4betting me here b/c it's not a bluff. LOL, thats my theory and I make the weakest of weak folds, and my coach was correct in his assumption that I'm weak/tight lol :rolleyes:.
Well, the reason I ask is this:

When you're dealt JJ in this situation, there's a pretty good bet that the hand is going to end up in this forum. You're out of position vs. a fairly strong player who knows who you are, and the number of mistakes he'll make if you raise is very limited. Perhaps not so about the other player in the pot, but he's not the one I think you're worrying about.

I guess my question is this: What mistake are you hoping to induce? How does that affect your raise size? How does that affect your decision once you see how your opponent reacts?

How to play the hand once the action is on you really comes down to what you think your opponent(s) is/are likely to do, or be doing.

"If I raise, I think Zach is likely to make the mistake of..." ?

Calling too often? Folding too often? 4-betting too often?

I'm not trying to be intentionally difficult, btw, I just think this is a good angle to attack certain difficult spots at the table. And what I do - for better or worse - is that if I can't come up with a mistake my opponent is likely to make if I raise, then I take on a defensive role instead and make sure my own potential mistake is small. In this case, that translates to calling and hoping to induce mistakes on the flop (or avoiding making them myself).

That's not to say calling is the best move. Only that the only hand I think we'll get Zach to make a mistake to fold that he perhaps wouldn't if he knew we have specifically JJ is KQ, and that's too narrow of a range for me to target. If I think we can get him to 4-bet bluff too often, then 3-betting and then shoving is fine. And if we think he calls the 3-bet too often in position, then making a larger raise is good.

... Etc.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Chips
0
Not trying to be difficult here, but shouldnt we be worried about us making a mistake as well. We have Zach's range crushed here. Looking from his point of view have jag call with JJ is usually a mistake by jag, so isnt this something we want to avoid? I havent read theory of poker for awhile so im probably missing something here.

To your point, I think squeezing here with JJ would cause zach to make the mistake of raising too much and calling too much here. JJ is a strong hand, and id imagine jag(and zach for that matter) are squeezing lighter here. You are putting his flatting/4 bet range on strictly QQ+ AK after a squeez by the good player he knows?
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

I'm sweet enough!
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 18, 2007
Total posts
5,478
Chips
0
You make some valid points FP. However my concerns with flatting 3bet here oop, is basically we never know where we are in the hand. We become passive in the hand more often that not and end up chk/calling 1 or 2 streets or even folding flop. This could become totally expoitable as we're going to be bluffed off our hand a lot on the turn and river by a decent reg. Obviously not all the time, but I dunno, it just seems like could this ever be +ev play in the long term? I mean its very situational/villain dependent I know. BTW your not being difficult, it's always good to have varied reviews/analysis of a hand.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
You make some valid points FP. However my concerns with flatting 3bet here oop, is basically we never know where we are in the hand. We become passive in the hand more often that not and end up chk/calling 1 or 2 streets or even folding flop. This could become totally expoitable as we're going to be bluffed off our hand a lot on the turn and river by a decent reg. Obviously not all the time, but I dunno, it just seems like could this ever be +ev play in the long term? I mean its very situational/villain dependent I know. BTW your not being difficult, it's always good to have varied reviews/analysis of a hand.
You're not flatting a 3-bet though, it's just the one raise.

Continuing this reasoning by answering this:
Not trying to be difficult here, but shouldnt we be worried about us making a mistake as well. We have Zach's range crushed here. Looking from his point of view have jag call with JJ is usually a mistake by jag, so isnt this something we want to avoid? I havent read theory of poker for awhile so im probably missing something here.
The thing with JJ is that we're not likely to have a ton of hot/cold equity in this pot. Some, sure. Better than average. But not AA or KK type equity where we can be positive that we're absolutely crushing.

Based solely on hot/cold equity, the value we "miss" by not raising (which would be the mistake we would be doing if we knew both our opponents had worse hands and would call a raise) is small, whereas the cost of the mistake of raising into a better hand is big. It evens out a bit - and maybe to the point where raising gains an advantage - because big hands are more rare than bad hands.

But we give up a few things when we raise, as well. We give up our implied odds for hitting a set vs. what might be a big hand. We risk driving the bad player out of the pot. We miss out on getting to trap both of the other players for a raise when we like the flop.

I don't think it's clear-cut. If we want to make money off of Zach, though, I think we need to have some idea of what way we'll win that money off of him. Getting him to fold preflop is not bad, since that creates $4 worth of dead money and him giving up some equity (he's bound to have some equity even when opening very light).

We'll have the pleasant situation of having "position" on the two players after the flop. We're first to act, but Zach has initiative and is likely to c-bet most flops, no? And that gives us a chance to react to the flop and see what the other guy does.

In any situation, if we raise I think we should have our battle plan prepared before we do it, to avoid having to wonder what to do next when not everyone folds.
 
widowmaker89

widowmaker89

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 31, 2008
Total posts
514
Chips
0
For the sake of discussion, if it is being assumed that zach is going to c bet then cant we say the only person we are learning from is the sb? If zach is automatically c-betting doesnt that really put him in position? If it is such a given zach c bets then we arent learning anything when he does and thus lose the knowlede potion of our "position". Plus future streets is where position would matter more anyway with JJ I would say. So many flops with A,K,Q that we may be able to call a bet but two will be difficult.

While you are correct that crush is not the right word for zach, Id say its leaning that way for sb without prior knowledge of him, so im not too worried of his hand being QQ+ here.

As for implied odds, Zachs range is quite large here, we should get a bet out of him but I dont think the advantage of implied odds is too large since he wont stack many of his hands unless he hits the flop hard as well.
 
ChuckTs

ChuckTs

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 2, 2005
Total posts
13,642
Chips
0
I really don't like flatting - we're oop, we'll be in a 3-way pot, and have a hand that will be hard to get to showdown with and will be tough to get value from worse hands. This is a great spot to squeeze as a bluff/semibluff, we have a hand that's at the top of our range, and a guy that's likely to fight back at us because of crazy metagame stuffs.
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Chips
0
I really don't like flatting - we're oop, we'll be in a 3-way pot, and have a hand that will be hard to get to showdown with and will be tough to get value from worse hands. This is a great spot to squeeze as a bluff/semibluff, we have a hand that's at the top of our range, and a guy that's likely to fight back at us because of crazy metagame stuffs.

I do agree with this. I know our money in the long run comes from mistakes made by our opponents, but in this situation we just want the value out of our hand now. We don't expect to make a long-term profit if we switch between being the 3 players in this hand with the hands they have but we have a hand with value that is ahead of the range of the other two. Playing oop with JJ against 2 opponents is not going to be very profitable and makes US (us as in Jagsti) make a ton of mistakes, while 3-betting is practically never a mistake since he's ahead of the ranges of both the raiser and caller. So while it doesn't induce many mistakes, it does help us make less mistakes and help ensure that we don't get exploited and forced into making a mistake later in the hand by either folding the best hand or paying off a better one when an over hits.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

euro love
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 24, 2005
Total posts
5,799
Awards
1
Chips
1
When you say "get value out of our hand now" and "make less make mistakes and help ensure that we don't get exploited," aren't you basically making the argument that we turn the hand into a bluff? It sounds like we're giving up if called or raised.

We wouldn't 3-bet 44 here (would we?), and I don't think anyone thinks that calling with it would be -EV. So why is JJ worse?
 
zachvac

zachvac

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2007
Total posts
7,832
Chips
0
We wouldn't 3-bet 44 here (would we?)

Yes, that is the entire point of why villain would 4-bet lighter, because our range here is huge and JJ is pretty near the top of that range.
 
Top