[100NL 6max] AQ hits trips vs river shove

B

bw07507

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I think this was probably my worst played hand of my session today, really i guess I should be 3betting this or folding it preflop vs this type of villain. Want thoughts on the entire hand, not just the river action.

I have been ~20/17/4 and just 3bet 2 hands in a row, so didn't really wanna do it again but thought that folding would just be weak.

Villain is 17/14/1.8 over 350 hands

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

Hero (CO): $151.40 (151.4 bb)
BTN: $53 (53 bb)
SB: $98 (98 bb)
BB: $305.90 (305.9 bb)
UTG: $220.30 (220.3 bb)
MP: $106.50 (106.5 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with A
club.gif
Q
diamond.gif

UTG folds, MP raises to $3.50, Hero calls $3.50, BTN calls $3.50, 2 folds

Flop: ($12) 5
club.gif
8
club.gif
A
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(3 players)
MP bets $9, Hero calls $9, BTN folds

Turn: ($30) J
spade.gif
(2 players)
MP bets $25, Hero calls $25

River: ($80) A
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(2 players)
MP bets $69 and is all-in, Hero ?
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Hero folds.

And yeah, 3-betting pre is cool. Calling behind isn't too terrible either, better if its s00ted, since you hit more flops. Generally, the tighter a player's opening range, the more likely I am to call behind with position.

As played, I think your line is fine, and I'd prolly dump this on the river. The A didn't put us ahead of anything that we weren't ahead of on the turn. We beat what, AT and busted draws? Unless this guy has shown a real tendency to fire 2-3 barrels (which a 1.8 prolly doesn't), we pretty much have to let this go. I think the passive line is okay for this hand as well.

The only thing that makes me want to call is that he's repping a very narrow range of AA, AK, AJ, JJ, 88, 55. And JJ probably wouldn't c-bet that flop.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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You might fold turn if you want.
 
Stick66

Stick66

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How about re-raising the flop before the pot gets larger later on? Make it an extra $25 (total $34) since you were willing to call that much on the turn anyway. Kind of thinking ahead. It would worsen the FD odds and possibly get AJ/AT to fold before the J hits the turn. Then if he calls the flop, he may check to you on the turn.

Also imo, a 1.8 postflop AF can still very likely semi-bluff a FD with KQc all the way down. Now a 0.8, I'd say no.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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How about re-raising the flop before the pot gets larger later on? Make it an extra $25 (total $34) since you were willing to call that much on the turn anyway. Kind of thinking ahead. It would worsen the FD odds and possibly get AJ/AT to fold before the J hits the turn. Then if he calls the flop, he may check to you on the turn.

Also imo, a 1.8 postflop AF can still very likely semi-bluff a FD with KQc all the way down. Now a 0.8, I'd say no.

I think raising flop only gets villain to continue with hands that beat ours.
 
blankoblanco

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i think you really have to 3bet pre. it's going to be really difficult to play AQ profitably postflop vs. a player this solid. obviously you're usually going to miss the flop, and even when you hit it, it's a guessing game because you don't have initiative and by calling, your range is more well-defined than his. so for this to be profitable, you're going to have to be able to take it away postflop a fair amount, and then one could argue that if you're able to do that, 3betting is still best because it will be a bigger pot to take away, and you give yourself a very easy fold to a 4bet and avoid getting in big trouble vs. all the hands that crush you

on the river you practically only beat a bluff, so you should do the same thing you'd do with KJ (which is probably fold). it's extreeemely unlikely that he'd play AT this strong on the turn and river. biggest difference between AQ and KJ here is that you could conceivably chop with another AQ, but that's about it
 
Stick66

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I think raising flop only gets villain to continue with hands that beat ours.

You might fold turn if you want.
If you're gonna fold the turn anyway, why not take a shot and winning the pot before another card comes on the turn? As we sit on the flop, we beat everything in this guy's range except AK or a set. Take the shot now and fold the turn after know where we are and a scare card hits next.

This is just an idea. If someone wants to give me a detailed reason why this is a bad idea, have at it. I'm open.
 
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c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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If you're gonna fold the turn anyway, why not take a shot and winning the pot before another card comes on the turn? As we sit on the turn, we beat everything in this guy's range except AK or a set. Take the shot now and fold the turn after know where we are and a scare card hits next.

This is just an idea. If someone wants to give me a detailed reason why this is a bad idea, have at it. I'm open.
If FD's are going to fire 3 barrels, they're shoving the flop too... Raising just stops him from pure bluffing the turn/river. And raising to avoid getting 3-barreled by like pocket 3's is um... bad. If I raise this flop, I full intend to get all in because I think there's enough AJ/AT/FD's/67 in his range to make it profitable. And since a 17/14 ain't got that stuff in his range as much, I think its a pretty simple call 1-2 streets, and dump it if tripled.
 
blankoblanco

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If you're gonna fold the turn anyway, why not take a shot and winning the pot before another card comes on the turn? As we sit on the flop, we beat everything in this guy's range except AK or a set. Take the shot now and fold the turn after know where we are and a scare card hits next.

This is just an idea. If someone wants to give me a detailed reason why this is a bad idea, have at it. I'm open.

well, let me put it this way. if we are to assume that raising the flop folds out nearly everything we beat, the main reason for doing so would be for information. if we're confident enough to make an assessment of his range based on his turn bet, then we get that information for free (after the cost of calling flop, of course). if we raise the flop, we're paying money for it
 
Stick66

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well, let me put it this way. if we are to assume that raising the flop folds out nearly everything we beat, the main reason for doing so would be for information. if we're confident enough to make an assessment of his range based on his turn bet, then we get that information for free (after the cost of calling flop, of course). if we raise the flop, we're paying money for it
OK. But what if we are NOT confident in making an assessment of his range based on his turn bet? Do you think another good reason to raise the flop is to deny him another card? It seems to me that the J on the turn is what is causing the dilema here. If we deny him a chance to hit that J or a Club, we could win the pot right there on the flop. Am I giving the tightish villain too much credit in assuming he'll fold in this case?
 
blankoblanco

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you have to consider the fact that raising the flop bet to a standard amount like 3x is generally going to cost us a similar amount of $ as calling the flop and calling the turn. when you add in the fact that calling gives him an opportunity to bluff air, and the fact that some of the club draws you're worried about could easily 3bet semibluff us on the flop and force us to fold the best hand, i just feel that calling is more profitable

you're implying that he might have AJ on the flop and that we want to fold that hand out with a raise so they don't hit the turn, but why would we want that? if he hits a 3 outer, so be it. if i have the guy crushed and not to mention i have position on him, i'd like the hand to continue, not to make him fold. i would only consider raising flop if i believed he was calling with a lot of hands like that, for value
 
deadhxc

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Am I the only one who would have been like "HELL YES TRIPS" shoooove :)



of course it would probably be in the bad beat forum right now too lol
 
Stick66

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you have to consider the fact that raising the flop bet to a standard amount like 3x is generally going to cost us a similar amount of $ as calling the flop and calling the turn. when you add in the fact that calling gives him an opportunity to bluff air, and the fact that some of the club draws you're worried about could easily 3bet semibluff us on the flop and force us to fold the best hand, i just feel that calling is more profitable

you're implying that he might have AJ on the flop and that we want to fold that hand out with a raise so they don't hit the turn, but why would we want that? if he hits a 3 outer, so be it. if i have the guy crushed and not to mention i have position on him, i'd like the hand to continue, not to make him fold. i would only consider raising flop if i believed he was calling with a lot of hands like that, for value
Yeah, you're right. I guess I was being results-oriented in seeing that J had hit the turn. OK. I'll shut up now and let others respond.
 
vanquish

vanquish

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Yeah. To reiterate an important concept: Do not raise to protect your hand as often in cash games as in tournaments. (such as protecting TP against villain's 2nd pair, which might hit two pair on the turn, etc.)
 
GunslingerZ

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In Professional No Limit Holdem, they talk about planning your hand around commitment. They say a very bad mistake long term is putting in over one-third of the effective stacks and then folding (when your relative hand strength hasn't changed).

So as played, I think the turn decision is a pretty clear commitment decision, because calling the turn will leave less than a pot-size bet on the river. If you think you are ahead of enough of his range on the turn, make the call and plan to call the river. Otherwise, I would just fold the turn.
 
B

bw07507

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I did call the river here and villain showed up with AJ. Really I think folding the turn here is the only option vs a villain like this. He's just never firing again here without AK+ i dont think.
 
C

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Fold was the right thing 2 do. 90% of the time you are against a full house there, so calling with trips is weak.
 
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