100nl 6max - AKo oop and deep

Jagsti

Jagsti

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Your thoughts on this hand and how we play from here. I'm 22/18/3 villian is 18/16/4 and seems solid.

poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

BB: $27.70
UTG: $140.15
MP: $132.85
CO: $99.50
BTN: $185.65
Hero (SB): $178.65

Pre-Flop: A
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K
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dealt to Hero (SB)
UTG raises to $3, 2 folds, BTN raises to $11, Hero raises to $34, 2 folds, BTN calls $23

Flop: ($72) 4
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7
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K
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(2 Players)
Hero?
 
ChuckTs

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Well he's tight enough not to call a 4bet with TT/AQ and under, so although they're possible, they're not likely. That means we're basically against a range of JJ+ and AK. AA/KK are unlikely based both on the pf action and on the combinations, so that's a little out the window too. Most likely we're looking at QQ-JJ and AK here, and combinations-wise, and underpair is showing up 2/3 the time here (ty stox combo).

So the issue here is how likely he is to stack or call a cbet with QQ-JJ here. In general that's like the worst board in the world for them in a 4bet pot, so they may not even continue with a diamond. I think checking for pot control is best unless you think he'll go nuts with QdQx here or something.
 
F Paulsson

F Paulsson

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I think the pot-control cat is out of the box, unfortunately. I would probably get it all in on the flop, because

1) My hand has OK equity.
2) I really don't want to have to make a decision for my stack on a fourth diamond turn.
3) Once in awhile he'll fold JdJx or QdQx and that's a pretty good result for us. Even the times when he calls with it is a good result. The only thing that's a bad result is when he has a diamond and we check.

The fact that villain just called the 4-bet removes most of the chance of him being solid, by the way. There's exactly one hand that I can forgive someone doing that with, and it's AA in position. Though I suppose he might have that.
 
WVHillbilly

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Agreed, there is no pot control when the remaining stacks are only slightly more than the preflop pot. I'm willing to stack with TPTK here.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Agreed, there is no pot control when the remaining stacks are only slightly more than the preflop pot. I'm willing to stack with TPTK here.

Well, remaining stacks are still twice the pot. So if you shove now, it is an overbet.

On the other hand, if you do shove the flop, villain would make a mistake here not to call with QdQx or JdJx as he would have proper equity.

I think I like Fredrick's approach.
 
Chris_TC

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I bet $45 to $50 and call a shove. I'd usually bet this board with air as well btw.

If I remember correctly, cold 4-bets are very rare at 100nl, so he probably puts you on Kings or Aces and doesn't have either himself. So I agree with Chuck that his most likely holdings are Queens, Jacks and AK.
He'll probably fold QQ and JJ no matter what, so bet and don't let him catch a diamond in case he has one.

Controlling the pot probably isn't going to work because it's so big already. Let's say the turn and river both brick off. He bets $40 on the turn, do we fold? Obviously not. Pot on the river is now $152. He shoves for ~$102, do we fold?

If you 4-bet AK and hit top pair, you must be willing to stack off. What else do you hope to hit? The deeper you are, the less willing you should be to 4-bet AK btw.
 
BelgoSuisse

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The only reason to check flop would be if you believe villain can then bet this board with QQ or JJ no diamond. But that would not strike me as a particularly solid play on his part.
 
Jagsti

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OK, I check, he bets $54...... We still willing to play for stacks now by CRAI, judging by the responses thats a yes? Calling is not an option and folding is a possiblity.
 
F Paulsson

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If you check, folding is not necessarily bad. I'm guessing that he'd be not quite as apt to bet QdQx in this spot (taking a free card) so his range leans more towards AK. Though you're "splitting" versus AK, he's now freerolling if he has the Ad, and there's also the real possibility that you're drawing (almost) dead.

In the interest of being innovative, I'm pondering the value of check/calling the flop and shoving any turn, but intuitively it doesn't strike me as optimal. Thoughts?

This is a really interesting spot, given the size of the pot and the stack sizes.
 
Jagsti

Jagsti

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My thoughts are, calling here puts me in a shitty position on the turn. I'm already in a shitty position, unless villain has QQ. I'm not sure I wanna call the flop b/c I don't want to fold my hand after calling in that position. The way I look at it I have 2 options fold/crai.

I'm wondering about my pf line here, is calling 3 bet pf as chris suggested a better line this deep?
 
Chris_TC

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We can't check-fold after we 4-bet and hit top pair. We'd be turning our hand into a bluff. We don't need AK to 4-bet preflop and hope to take down the pot, we can do that with any two.

Basically, you can check-raise all-in or check-call. Check-calling looks weak which gives villain the opportunity to (semi-)bluff-shove the turn.
I think I prefer a check-call after you check, but I don't like the check very much to begin with.
 
BelgoSuisse

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I think this thread is slowly turning into a great argument against 4betting preflop with AK when you're 200bb deep...

At this point, i'm not sure folding is totally to be ruled out. If you think villain only takes this line with AK,KK+ and QQ or JJ with a diamond, then you don't have the proper equity to play for stacks against this range (you need 45% at this stage)

Board: Kd 7d 4d

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 39.564% 22.80% 16.76% 3612 2655.00 { AsKc }
Hand 1: 60.436% 43.67% 16.76% 6918 2655.00 { KK+, QcQd, QdQh, QdQs, JcJd, JdJh, JdJs, AKs, AKo }

If you add non diamond QQ or JJ to his range (EDIT: or if you think KK+ is never flatting your 4bet), then you should go on with the hand and then it's really a matter of extracting as much as possible from the weakest part of his range.

I think I prefer to CRAI because I doubt QQ or JJ will really try to bluff-shove once you call the flop bet. On the other hand, if a non diamond hits turn, you probably won't get any more value from QdQx and JdJx which is half his QQ and JJ range.
 
Last edited:
zachvac

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This is really interesting. Sorry to hijack but I'd like to discuss the bit about 4-betting AK here. Chris said that you should not 4-bet AK if you aren't prepared to stack TPTK. At first glance, it seems that if villain will only call or shove AK/KK+ that you should not 4-bet AK, because it's basically a bluff. But what about when we raise AT on the button? I'm folding to most 3-bets here and it doesn't fold out much worse so it's not a great bluffing hand. But it gives us fold equity against hands that have value against us, and the AK is a huge example of that. Especially if villain is "solid", he could be 3-betting this light, or even just have a range as wide as 99+/AJ+/KQ. I don't have Pokerstove on this computer but if we use that range plus some bluffs, 4-betting this is definitely profitable. But again it doesn't make much sense, as 4-bet bluffing AK is the same as 4-bet bluffing 56 and with a hand with showdown value like AK we don't want to be bluffing with it. So I think I agree with Chris here. The difference between the two examples though, this one and raising AT on the button, is that there are a lot more calls from the blinds and a lot more showdown value with AT against the hands that call.

Anyway, I think I agree with Chris. I wasn't sure when I started the post and maybe I confused people more than helped them, but at least now I think I understand. The major difference is that in a 4-bet pot where AK/KK+ are the only hands calling (pretty much only place we don't want to stack AK preflop or when we hit TPTK), AK has no showdown value and AT does against the hands that call it from a preflop button raise. Especially for 3 and 4-bets where we aren't getting a ton of flat calls from worse, we want to do it with the top of our range for value and the bottom of our range as bluffs.

Although actually why would we use the bottom of our range as bluffs? Shouldn't we make it more situational? I've heard this a lot and it makes sense in pots we're pondering calling or bluffing, but here we should be bluffing the hands that do well when flat called. Since we predict getting flat called almost never (this hand is the exception, mostly it's fold or push), is there anything wrong with 4-betting AK here as a bluff? I don't believe we should here but if we have someone labelled as someone who will not play for stacks with less than KK+/AK but will 3-bet light why not bluff 4-bet here with AK? If we don't plan on showing it down what's wrong with 4-betting AK as a bluff rather than folding it?
 
widowmaker89

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To add to that question what is the correct play with AK here? We cant really be flatting AK OOP can we? If so what is our plan if we miss? If its check/fold I think that is spew, and it will be tough for it not to be c/f. This situation is a bit different from what im thinking since the original raiser is someone else. What were his stats? Could the 3 bet be an iso attempt? Or is he a nit and the 3 bettor is expecting at least a call and probably a raise?
 
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