£1000 NLHE Full Ring: 5/10/25 Live 5 flush board

M

Marginal

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So a bit of background on this hand.

I know this reg fairly well, this is however the first time we are playing holdem together. We have played PLO on a few separate occasions, the first couple of times I was able to just completely run over him and win pots at will so I just didn't have much appreciation for his game. We played some PLO 2 weeks ago and he completely changed and was playing back a fair bit more. I probably didn't adjust too well to him and tried to run over like before and got picked off in 1 or 2 more spots than usual.

So fast forward to Saturday night. we are playing a £5/10/25 holdem game. I am sat with £25k and he is sat with roughly £9k. I have only been at the table for an hour or so but its a soft game and his holdem game is a lot more impressive than PLO. He seems to be the type that wouldn't be fundamentally correct by online standards but seems to be good with fish and a lot more of a battler at holdem. Based on our past history at PLO and his adjustment, I imagine he isn't terrible and probably has success at fishy holdem games however I wouldn't consider him an end boss type reg. I do however expect him to play back at me.

I am in Mid position and he is in CO. I open to 75£ with 77 and he 3 bets to £225. Folds around to me and I flat. Flop comes 843 monotone with diamonds. I do not have diamonds. He cbets roughly £300 after I check and I peel one off. turn is the 9 of diamonds making it a 4 flush board and we both check.

River is the 7 of diamonds making it a 5 flush board. Bear in mind there is now £1,100 in the pot. I go for a cheeky overbet as in the past when I have bluffed him its usually been for small 1/2 pot bets due to his general passiveness. I figure it disguises my hand pretty well and most people who overbet here don't usually have bluffs. Hence I make it £1,200.

He tanks for a while and raises to £2,550 which is also against what he has done in the past. He is not the type to try to squeeze out value with a Qd or a Kd after checking the turn and is more than likely going to flat those hands. It leaves a spot where hes either got an Ad or a straight flush JTdd both of which form reasonable parts of his range. My thought process is that JTdd will check the turn but would find a larger raise size on the river since my bet has more Ad in it, while an Ad will try to eek out a little more value from a lesser diamond. It is also very hard for me to be nutted and thus it make sense for him to throw out a bluff, bet sizing wouldn't matter too much in this instance if he is rebluffing me and he would have a preference to making it smaller.

River decision?
 
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Trabendo_daze

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So the decision is to either rebluff or fold, right?
 
M

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yea no value in calling.
 
dj11

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Fold, you don't have a winning hand, at best u split, but even there you are handing him another half of his bet.
 
Trabendo_daze

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This sounds like a decision made on the super super meta-game (tells, history, shit he said before the hand)...

It's hard to figure out how wide his bluffing range here is. Idk man.
 
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Fold, you don't have a winning hand, at best u split, but even there you are handing him another half of his bet.

Fwiw I didn't think I needed to specify but I am not asking if I should be calling.....
 
dj11

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The way you wrote it up, villain here has a diamond better than the 3, and believes you have no diamonds. He's in.
 
M

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What do you mean by he is in? Also if he has a single diamond in between 3 to Q, you don't think that's something we can get him to fold by rebluffing here?

granted he never has a diamond in that range since its closer to him calling it unless he turns it into a bluff which also increases my ability to get away with a 3 bet.
 
toots babos

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Feeling ballsy? Raise to £4.5k, sit back in your seat and look super cool :D

Otherwise just let it go
 
Jillychemung

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He's put you on a range that has a lot of midPP and since a lot of those are already on the board he's put you on mostly a bluff with your overbet and he knows his range has more diamonds in it than yours. He probably isn't too worried about the JTdd as it's just 1 combo.
 
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The way your explaining this villain I expect him to have a lot of diamonds in his range, I would let it go, it appears you have the image to him of being more bluffy/agressive as well.
 
c9h13no3

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tl;dr

Edit: Fold pre you fish.
 
vinylspiros

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im folding here.
 
Figaroo2

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You sort of describe him as passive in your 1st plo meeting and not an aggressive boss at holdem. This is important as he is raising both pre flop and on the river so I'm reading him as strong here with likely a high single diamond, my amateur reading is;
As played the initial 3bet comes from a lot of combos of AK AQ AA KK QQ JJ and half of these combos will hold a high diamond. A big diamond c bets this board all day and you peel. If I was in his shoes I'd be considering what you might have flatted my 3bet with and then called on the flop, usually AQ AJ (with a diamond ) 88 99 TT JJ maybe lower pairs depending on how deep you are. You calling here with a slight over pair with a diamond makes total sense knowing I'm barrelling half the time without a diamond. So the 4th diamond arrives and he doesn't bet. This indicates to me he is not absolutely nutted. A nutted flush I'd be betting to charge sets looking to boat up and take me down. Im not betting a Q or J of diamonds on this turn as it would be a total sickner to get check raised on the turn there.
If I was nutted I'm betting the turn all day knowing you are never folding sets here to normal bet sizing.
So his raise on the end looks like it comes from probably the King of diamonds looking for thin value.
He knows you dont have the Ace diamonds as you would/should have bet that on the turn for the reasons already mentioned.
you overbet would get me tanking I'm not sure a value hand is over betting here. It makes more sense for medium flushes to check call or put in some sort of blocker.
A shovel all in on the end might work but he has a lot of money in the middle now 3k with 6k behind and he knows it makes sense for the Ad to have bet the turn and it's unlikely that you called a 3bet with JT.
Meh...I fold now...Your overbet might have got a jack or queen flush to fold but now he's raised we are toast.

C9 is right of course, it's a fold preflop. Calling 3bets out of position with small pairs is a massive leak in most players games. Calling with 77 is borderline at best and most of the time you miss there are overcards and you fold on the flop.
 
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M

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Folding pre is out of the question 300+Bb deep. There is no way this is a fold and it's definitely not a leak in high stakes live games

Also I don't think I am donking Ad here cause that's just not going to make me a ton of money compared to giving him rope.

I have a few more thoughts will post when I am not work
 
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I do want to also stress there is a none negligible amount of Ad that he's going to fold to 3 bet
 
TimovieMan

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I do want to also stress there is a none negligible amount of Ad that he's going to fold to 3 bet
Vs you, who he has picked off once or twice in PLO recently?
I don't think so. Not when it's only 1 combo that beats him.

You can get him off the Kd, but if he's capable of playing back without overdoing it, I seriously think he has you beat and isn't folding here.

I'd fold.
 
Figaroo2

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Yeah I can see why we don't lead out on the turn if we aren't putting him on sets which we aren't.
If he can't reduce the possibility of you having the ace of diamonds then in my eyes that makes his river min raise even stronger.
I'd just go with the Harrington school advice that 4 or worse 5 to a flush on the board and they are betting then just let it go.
 
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Surely you guys recognise how a 3 bet is way different than standard playing back in single bet pots
 
Figaroo2

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Both my coaches and common sense points to most villains playing more honest in 3 bet pots. How often is he 3 betting and talk ranges with us, we're guessing at his preflop strength, every nuance is important.
 
M

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He has something ridiculous like a 15-20% 3 bet in this game. I'm just kinda surprised you guys think it's a straight forward fold or that he's raising calling Kd on river.
 
Figaroo2

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Folding pre is out of the question it's definitely not a leak in high stakes live games

I'll call you out on the this unless you can provide any evidence, which you probably can't because it's live. No one likes to think it's a leak but playing 77 or smaller pairs oop in a 3bet pot as the caller is a leak in every players database I've looked at. I have looked at this quite closely with leak buster and several other players whilst looking at playing small pairs generally. The problem is you never get paid anywhere near often enough to make up for all the folds. In fact it's probably a leak even in position for most.
 
M

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Also it's worth noting this is live. Preflop is as important as the shirt he is wearing. It's going to be way more random than you think
 
M

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I'll call you out on the this unless you can provide any evidence, which you probably can't because it's live. No one likes to think it's a leak but playing 77 or smaller pairs oop in a 3bet pot as the caller is a leak in every players database I've looked at. I have looked at this quite closely with leak buster and several other players whilst looking at playing small pairs generally. The problem is you never get paid anywhere near often enough to make up for all the folds. In fact it's probably a leak even in position for most.

I'll ask a few questions,

How many of this was in deep games


And then secondly you can't use small stakes online analysis to discuss high stakes live it's a completely different game. Every bit of ones range is going to be massively different. Surely you can recognise this
 
dj11

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What do you mean by he is in? Also if he has a single diamond in between 3 to Q, you don't think that's something we can get him to fold by rebluffing here?

granted he never has a diamond in that range since its closer to him calling it unless he turns it into a bluff which also increases my ability to get away with a 3 bet.

While you are telling us you have noticed a change in his game, are you dissing his ability to know you?

By in, I mean he wants you to shove, he is begging you. And just to sweeten the idea, he probably has the SF and is praying you have the Ad.
 
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