$1000 NLHE 6-max: KK in 4-bet pot, deep-stacked. Could anybody check the line?

F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 29/23/2

4 players at the table.Hero is UTG (CO) with KcKs, the villain on BB (VPIP 29, PFR23, CC12, AF2,5, 3B 10,8, Call 3 Bet 36%, Fold vs 3 bet 52%, 4 Bet 12%, Fold vs 4 Bet 50%). The villain is rather strong and cunning, capable of good bluffs and trapping. He is usually much tighter, maybe the loose table loosened him a bit.
We were deep – 2200$ each.

I bet 30, he raises 110, I raise 270, he calls. It is 545$ before the flop. At the time I put him at TT, JJ, QQ, AK(I saw him going all in with AK against 4-bet deep-stacked. He played rather loose at this table so I didn’t discount TT). The flop is Jd6c9d. He checks, I check back. I wanted some pot control with just an overpair as the pot was allready big and we were deep. The turn is 3d, I bet 272,5, he calls. At this moment, as he called 4-bet preflop and called my turn bet I discounted all AK except AdKd and put him on TT, JJ, QQ, AdKd (16 combos). The river is a brick 2s, he checks, I check back. I was scared of a slowplayed set with pocket JJ and a flush with AdKd. Of course, it is only 4 combos out of 16. Also, he didn’t raise the turn knowing that I might check the river back as I did on the flop. So it was his only chance to let the pot grow… Now that I think of it I think I was too timid and missed a lot of value. Probably I should have bet the flop, check the turn and bet the river again…. Could anybody check the line ?
 
J

jackaoliver

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 8, 2013
Total posts
377
Awards
1
Chips
1
I like this line in one way, as you are minimising the money you could potentially lose, he has called a 4 bet indicating he must have something. I think your range selection is right, and if you have a player who as you say can be good at trapping, can play sets flushes in this way to try and get you to fire on the river after the check check on the turn. Maybe you could of got more value on the flop, like the check back when the 3rd diamond comes, and can understand the check behind on the river. Maybe bet on the river but he could see some weakness after the check behind on the turn and try to push you off your hand.. well played in my opinion.
 
Jblocher1

Jblocher1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 20, 2012
Total posts
2,645
Chips
0
It's very possible that when he checks the turn he is creating a false sense of security for u on the river. I can see myself definitely slowing down here. I don't think checking back is horrible, even though u MIGHT be missing out on some value. I don't mind the play
 
giraug

giraug

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 16, 2012
Total posts
429
Awards
4
Chips
5
I would think he had TT or QQ... and no diamond...
 
M

micromoi

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 26, 2010
Total posts
502
Chips
0
as u said not alot of hand thatscares u and u still played this one scared, u missed alot of value why the pot contole when u r a head 15times out of 16 as u guessed on the flop, same thing on the river. he gets there with a cheap showdown as loose as he is i put him on QJs J10s aloso 88s to 10s.
 
H

Henreiman

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 17, 2008
Total posts
560
Chips
0
I'm c-betting to stack off on this flop, re-eval turn. If you're as confident in his range as you seem to be, I see 0 point in checking the turn...either a scare card comes for you and potentially hits a draw, or he continues to get worse. Have to bet river for value, no way he's slow-playing that hard after such a timid line from you. Bet $525 to get calls from 1010/AJ/QQ, theoretically fold to a shove.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I'm guessing you're playing way above your BR to be posting a hand like this. Flop is a standard bet/gii, since we should be betting any bluffs here as well. If you're afraid of getting it in 200 bb deep in a 4b pot with KK on this board texture, you probably shouldn't be playing $1knl. Just my guess based on your language, but I could be wrong.
 
M

matiusaa

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 29, 2013
Total posts
779
Chips
0
I should have betted the flop, maybe less than half the pot, to take value + have some pot control in case something goes wrong (it will be easier to fold the hand if you have invested less money). Then i would have checked the turn, and call the river if he raised. If he checked the river, you could play safe, or make a value bet of 1/3 the pot. I don't blame you for not playing the hand aggressively, you are playing with a lot of money, You didn't play it bad.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
There is $545 in the pot on the flop and we have roughly a $2k stack behind. If we're not ready to get it in with an overpair on a dry-ish board with an SPR of < 4 in a 4bet pot then we've made a mistake.
 
tony4680

tony4680

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 23, 2013
Total posts
263
Chips
0
There is $545 in the pot on the flop and we have roughly a $2k stack behind. If we're not ready to get it in with an overpair on a dry-ish board with an SPR of < 4 in a 4bet pot then we've made a mistake.
+8.67
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
Not sure if OP didn't read any other post or just ignoring.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
what he had exactly doesn't matter.

scourge is right, bet ship the flop

as played BET THE RIVER, we dont get raised by air very often imo so when we're raised we're beat like 95%
 
F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
I'm guessing you're playing way above your BR to be posting a hand like this. Flop is a standard bet/gii, since we should be betting any bluffs here as well. If you're afraid of getting it in 200 bb deep in a 4b pot with KK on this board texture, you probably shouldn't be playing $1knl. Just my guess based on your language, but I could be wrong.
AA and KK lost me a lot of money to 2 pair, sets and flushes. I was ready to get it in preflop, but not auto-stack postflop with that SPR. Isn't it standard to reason: big pots for big hands? Should we always stack off an overpair postflop? Don't think so.
Loose as he is he might easily have 99 or JJ or AdKd given he called a 4 bet.
 
Matt Vaughan

Matt Vaughan

King of Moody Rants
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2008
Total posts
7,150
Awards
5
Chips
6
I didn't say "ALWAYS STACK OFF KK POSTFLOP" though. I said in such a small SPR, you have to always gii. Unless you have some sick, insane read.
 
Blobweird123

Blobweird123

CC's very own Dead Head
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Total posts
2,468
Chips
0
I didn't say "ALWAYS STACK OFF KK POSTFLOP" though. I said in such a small SPR, you have to always gii. Unless you have some sick, insane read.

Almost inclined to think he doesn't know SPR so ignored that part. Do me a favor and stay at 1knl till I get there :)
 
F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
Almost inclined to think he doesn't know SPR so ignored that part. Do me a favor and stay at 1knl till I get there :)
Don't be rude! I know what SPR means no less than you do! You should have read the post more carefully befor being sarcastic
 
stately7

stately7

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 1, 2012
Total posts
365
Chips
0
Don't be rude! I know what SPR means no less than you do! You should have read the post more carefully befor being sarcastic

Agree that is a little bit rude. I'm still learning to apply SPR and it's a really valuable tool for decisions/analysis at the stakes I'm playing in ($20-$30 nl online, $200 live).

But at some of the mid to higher and even nosebleed stakes, wouldn't other factors increase in consideration? Reads, ranges, in particular around villain tendencies toward trapping big over pairs when deep?

Saying that, we have to be mindful of not always fearing monsters under the bed, and i think fair to say here a flop bet, check behind turn, and call or bet river was more the right line (not raising river especially after 3rd diamond hit). If your river bet is raised, have to take a read in that spot - it's a theoretical fold as has been said, but it's a call if villain has tendency to overly try and outplay you / rep the flush etc. Your read of 1010 - QQ was about spot on anyway.
 
blueskies

blueskies

Legend
Loyaler
Joined
Jan 31, 2009
Total posts
3,643
Awards
9
Chips
304
Four bet stronger preflop. I am looking to get stacks in. Slow down if an ace hits, but with position and the 2nd best hand preflop I am firing like crazy.

Way too timid postflop as well.

Yes he COULD have JJ but he could also have many more hands you can squeeze value out of.

What were your stats? In particular 3bet and 4bet percentages. Villain played QQ quite timidly as well. I guess it is because your must have been playing super tight and conservative.
 
Blobweird123

Blobweird123

CC's very own Dead Head
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 20, 2012
Total posts
2,468
Chips
0
Don't be rude! I know what SPR means no less than you do! You should have read the post more carefully befor being sarcastic

I call it like I see it. You're playing way above what your experience dictates. I didn't comment on here to be nice and make you feel all warm inside. I was backing up a sentiment that you should move down. In another thread yoy said to someone you are quite experienced at these levels and yet you're posting hands that even I know how to play at 5nl or 10nl. :creep:
 
JusSumguy

JusSumguy

Chipmonger
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 9, 2011
Total posts
4,271
Awards
2
Chips
0
Scurge is right on the money. You had him from the gate.

A push might have made him fold a bluff, but in any case, you needed to get into high gear fast.

You tooled along in 2nd. gear.

-
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
I love my ace poker drills equity calculator...lets keep this really simple.
Safe to assume if he calls a 4 bet then he doesn't have aces.
You range him Ak QQ JJ 10s, you have 77.6% equity preflop which only goes down to 73% on that flop....
With a flush draw here i'm (and most others are) hanging around against only a half pot continuation (3-1 pot odds) but my implied odds will likely make it worth it, so you should have bet a minimum of 3/4 pot on the flop. This appears to be the main problem in this hand as the 3rd diamond came in and scared you, however, equity wise you are still crushing him.67%..
Bet the turn for value and not to give another shot at a flush. If he has JJ or AdKd in the hole so be it, the chances of these are imo too remote to consider and the equity shows most of the time you are getting it in good.
This is a case of low variance bet small = win small and I agree with nearly all of the posts in this string.
 
F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
I should have betted the flop, maybe less than half the pot, to take value + have some pot control in case something goes wrong (it will be easier to fold the hand if you have invested less money). Then i would have checked the turn, and call the river if he raised. If he checked the river, you could play safe, or make a value bet of 1/3 the pot. I don't blame you for not playing the hand aggressively, you are playing with a lot of money, You didn't play it bad.
I agree. It was probably the best line... Recent series of unfortune huge losses with high pocket pairs must have clouded my brain:)
 
F

Falcon1803

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 13, 2013
Total posts
105
Chips
0
There is $545 in the pot on the flop and we have roughly a $2k stack behind. If we're not ready to get it in with an overpair on a dry-ish board with an SPR of < 4 in a 4bet pot then we've made a mistake.
I agree. I didn't like the way I played as I said in the initial post.
 
Top