$100 NLHE Full Ring: TPSK + NFD on the turn, Double Barrel???

I have 3 hands on villain so nothing other than he open limped.

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $106.00
UTG+1: $202.35
MP: $120.60
MP+1: $100.00
Hero (CO): $100.00
BTN: $100.00
SB: $116.60
BB: $113.40

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has 5:diamond: A:diamond:

fold, UTG+1 calls $1.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $4.00, fold, SB calls $3.50, fold, UTG+1 calls $3.00

Flop: ($13.00, 3 players) 7:diamond: 3:spade: 8:diamond:
SB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.00, Hero raises to $9.00, fold, UTG+1 calls $8.00

Turn: ($31.00, 2 players) A:heart:
UTG+1 checks, Hero ???

Check or bet and if you're betting how much???

I mean he's pretty bad, limp calling then donking, so he could have all sorts of crap here. Betting makes sense, coz he likes to call and we get value out of his flush draws. Having said that betting the ace prolly gets him to fold his worse hands, or sets us up to get butt f***ed on the river if he's slow playing a monster and we miss our draw.

I think I chk behind and look to get some value on the river (coz I'm a passive donk). We may induce him into a bluff with his missed fl draws or look to get value from worse hands with our disguised Ace.

Villain is limp calling preflop making silly bet on the flop so is obviously a tard with a huge range. Could be calling our flop raise with any 8 and any flush draw. The turn has helped us by putting us ahead of most of his flop calling range and leaving us with the flush draw if we are somehow behind and A8, A7 type of hand.

I think this is a good situation to fire another barrel. It doesn't have to be huge, making it about half pot will leave us with room to fold if he shoves over, call if he min raises the turn bet or get stacks in on the river if he calls and our hand improves.

If he has this range of hands:
JJ-22, KdQd-3d2d, all other suited connectors that include an 8,7 or 3, A8, A7 and A3

and I do believe he could have it, you have 68% equity, so I'd keep building a pot and check behind him on the river if I miss the flush.

With no history, I just check behind turn and call a river bet. This will allow me to see his hand at showdown, make a note and hopefully use that information in the future.

That said, his donk min-bet, smooth call of your raise smells of a smaller flush draw, making me want to bet turn for value. That said, if I double barrel it would be for around $18-20, something he would still be willing to call with on a flush draw. This would put you in a tough spot if he shoves over you though.

Reasons to bet: Villain sucks and likely calls too wide, board is drawy and villain has many hands he can call with other than pairs, betting allows us to get it in on the river.

Reasons to call: Getting raised kinda sucks, we may get 7x to fold on this card, blowing him off a hand like JT really sucks when our draw dominates his.

I tend to lean towards building pots against fish, but this flop allows our opponent to have a *TON* of speculative call type hands. I think I'd lean towards checking for this reason, hoping to cooler him when both our draws hit, and to value town him a little easier when he's got 7x, 8x or 99. But if you bet, I don't think its wrong or anything. Just a spot where both options are about the same IMO.

c9h13no3 said:

Reasons to call: Getting raised kinda sucks, we may get 7x to fold on this card, blowing him off a hand like JT really sucks when our draw dominates his.

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Don't worry, if he's a fish like he seems to be, he's calling. If he does have the flush draw there are only 7 diamonds left anyway, 86% of the time he doesn't make the flush and then he's definitely not calling the river. Checking the turn is losing value, imo.

Check turn, see what happens on river.

c9h13no3 said:

Reasons to bet: Villain sucks and likely calls too wide, board is drawy and villain has many hands he can call with other than pairs, betting allows us to get it in on the river.

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Ding! Ding! Ding!

Im definitely betting the turn for this reason, I think i'm just half potting it though

If WVH checks and shows weakness on the turn . Will the vill fire on the river??? And how much?? the vill can have any type of hand, with only 3 hands played with him. Is the vill really calling a bet on the turn when the ace hits??

bgomez89 said:

Ding! Ding! Ding!

Im definitely betting the turn for this reason, I think i'm just half potting it though

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ALL IN CLUBS said:

If WVH checks and shows weakness on the turn . Will the vill fire on the river??? And how much?? the vill can have any type of hand, with only 3 hands played with him. Is the vill really calling a bet on the turn when the ace hits??

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Most limp/call passive types won't bet the river with less than TP ime. Now if I check the turn I do expect him to ch/call the river with everything in his range other than missed FDs.

I think he will call yes

Because poker is played aggressively nowadays I think you have to be ecstatic your A fell on the turn. I would have bet a K or Q on this turn as a double barrel so def bet now you hit to mix with the times you do miss.

15-18 is what I'd bet here.

KardKlub said:

Because poker is played aggressively nowadays I think you have to be ecstatic your A fell on the turn. I would have bet a K or Q on this turn as a double barrel so def bet now you hit to mix with the times you do miss.

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You can't bet the same cards as a bluff, and for value now can you? Plus balancing against fish is ridiclous.

c9h13no3 said:

Reasons to bet: Villain sucks and likely calls too wide, board is drawy and villain has many hands he can call with other than pairs, betting allows us to get it in on the river.

Reasons to call: Getting raised kinda sucks, we may get 7x to fold on this card, blowing him off a hand like JT really sucks when our draw dominates his.

I tend to lean towards building pots against fish, but this flop allows our opponent to have a *TON* of speculative call type hands. I think I'd lean towards checking for this reason, hoping to cooler him when both our draws hit, and to value town him a little easier when he's got 7x, 8x or 99. But if you bet, I don't think its wrong or anything. Just a spot where both options are about the same IMO.

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This, except I'm value betting turn. I want a big enough pot to stack villain on the river (if a Qd rolls off; should we check back, he's usually flatting river with JT. If we bet turn, he rarely folds JT, and always stacks that river). That said I bet relatively small, making sure I keep 7x+ in the pot.

Ok. I think the consensus is that it's really close and we're not really making a mistake betting or checking (and I agree which is probably why I thought it was a tough spot in game).

Anyway assume we do bet say $20 (cause betting is what I do!) and villain calls (pot $71 and we have $67 left), what is our line on the river if:

River blanks (say 2c) and villain checks?
River blanks and villan bets small (say $20)?
River blanks and villain shoves?

1) vbet, probably like 2/3 pot
2) flat; villain sometimes donks busted draws, worse made hands, but I don't think he bet/calls worse. He also has some better hands obv.
3) probably fold without some info that villain goes nuts with busted draws. I think AQ/AK/AJ/monsters are going to be the bulk of his range.

I also don't see how it's close on the turn. Are we saying we're afraid of better? Villain rarely c/r and it's a pretty easy fold without odds. He has plenty of draws and worse pairs, which we clearly want to get value from, and we really want to be able to shove the river when we hit our diamond.

So what'd you do Hillbilly?

ChuckTs said:

1) vbet, probably like 2/3 pot
2) flat; villain sometimes donks busted draws, worse made hands, but I don't think he bet/calls worse. He also has some better hands obv.
3) probably fold without some info that villain goes nuts with busted draws. I think AQ/AK/AJ/monsters are going to be the bulk of his range.

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If we bet in scenario 1 can we fold to a shove getting incredible odds? We would only have like $25 left in our stack after betting 2/3 pot on the river.

soccerrunner8098 said:

So what'd you do Hillbilly?

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Later maybe. Results unimportant at the moment.

WVHillbilly said:

If we bet in scenario 1 can we fold to a shove getting incredible odds? We would only have like $25 left in our stack after betting 2/3 pot on the river.

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Villain pretty much never c/r with worse so I think it's a pretty easy fold.

I think vbetting smaller is fine too.

c9h13no3 said:

You can't bet the same cards as a bluff, and for value now can you? Plus balancing against fish is ridiclous.

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Just because your in the pot against the fish doesn't mean the rest of the table isn't watching you.

And as for your first answer/ question? WTF?

As for follow on question. If you don't improve you need to check or fold the river

KardKlub said:

Just because your in the pot against the fish doesn't mean the rest of the table isn't watching you.

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So, if you see someone raising PF and then pot/pot/shove against a passive fish with TPTK, will you assume that's how he plays TPTK against everyone?

WVHillbilly said:

I have 3 hands on villain so nothing other than he open limped.

Full Tilt - $1 NL - Holdem - 8 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

UTG: $106.00
UTG+1: $202.35
MP: $120.60
MP+1: $100.00
Hero (CO): $100.00
BTN: $100.00
SB: $116.60
BB: $113.40

SB posts SB $0.50, BB posts BB $1.00

Pre Flop: ($1.50) Hero has 5♦ A♦

fold, UTG+1 calls $1.00, fold, fold, Hero raises to $4.00, fold, SB calls $3.50, fold, UTG+1 calls $3.00

Flop: ($13.00, 3 players) 7♦ 3♠ 8♦
SB checks, UTG+1 bets $1.00, Hero raises to $9.00, fold, UTG+1 calls $8.00

Turn: ($31.00, 2 players) A♥
UTG+1 checks, Hero ???

Check or bet and if you're betting how much???

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After reading all the posts I think it might be a good time to be a little passive and check the turn in hopes to hit your flush. This type of play and pattern from the "fish" really smells like poket 3's or 7's. I really feel like this play by the villian really says, "Hey, im trying to set mine you right now." and damn he hit the flop good if he was mining with 3's or 7's, and that $1.00 bet on the flop, I have made that stupid donk bet before hoping to get raised, so I can see why he maybe did that, and then smooth call cause he figures he is way ahead of you, and is gonna try to get it in on a later street.

So, IMO i say check the turn and hope for that diamond, and if the turn is a blank, you have some showdown value with the ace so we could call a half pot sized bet or less, but it might be better to let the hand go if he makes a weird river bet on a blank card. If he checks to you again on the river I would for sure just check with a blank card.