$100 NLHE Full Ring: AK, standard shove?

NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
$100 NL HE Full Ring: AK, standard shove?

Please indulge me if I'm seeming a little insecure here; still getting used to $100nl.

Standard? 1st limper is 50/20 over 15 hands, second is 45/20 over 30 hands, button is 16/13 over 80 hands.



pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($57.55)
CO ($57.85)
Button ($100.80)
Hero (SB) ($104.15)
BB ($105.20)
UTG ($105.30)
UTG+1 ($59.40)
MP1 ($100)
MP2 ($100)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K
spade.gif
, A
club.gif

4 folds, MP3 calls $1, CO calls $1, Button bets $4, Hero raises to $12, 1 fold, MP3 calls $11, 1 fold, Button raises to $35, Hero raises to $104.15 (All-In), 1 fold, Button calls $65.80 (All-In)
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
And, what's the minimum for the button's call, or even for his raise? Because of the limp/caller (who apparently finally folded his 77) the pot has gotten a bit big.
 
Z

Zybomb

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 12, 2009
Total posts
372
Chips
0
6 max its a no brainer shove, full ring it gets kind of cloudy
 
GeorgeCostanza

GeorgeCostanza

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 2, 2009
Total posts
75
Chips
0
yeah id agree, 6 max it would be, but ur prolly in a flip obv, i dont think u could ever argue its a bad shove but full ring is for nits
 
tenbob

tenbob

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 16, 2005
Total posts
11,221
Awards
1
Chips
20
I fold to the 4 bet against everyone but a spewtard on a FR table.

I think ranging this from anything other than QQ+, AK is asking a lot. Occasionally someone will 4 bet bluff esp if your 3 betting tons from the blinds, but without a specific read I fold.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
This is out of my league I think, but anyway the way I see this:

Fishies throw chips randomly into the pot, BTN/possible reg raises to avoid being squeezed and to isolate, hero 3bets saying he's got something pretty decent or is very rarely getting way too creative, BTN 4bets and his range goes from very wide to nuts or bigger nuts, hero's AK starts looking kinda wimpy and he desperately adds up the value donated by the fish and his own 3bet.

I agree that QQ+/AK is a reasonable range, vs that unless my maths is wrong we're paying $66 for about $90 equity. Shove.
I don't mind the fold though purely because we don't know his range is this wide (even if I don't think it can be tighter very often).


Just my 2cents, tell me if I'm way off.
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
I agree that QQ+/AK is a reasonable range, vs that unless my maths is wrong we're paying $66 for about $90 equity.

Whoever wrote that is an idiot.

It's actually $88 for $105.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
Hmm, maybe I think too much like a 6 max player even though I almost never play it.

With the first iso-raise of the limpers I figured his range to be pretty wide, 'specially from the button. That being the case I'm way ahead of his range but I don't want to flat OOP and with the two bad players likely to come along.

When he 4 bets it narrows and polarizes his range, but he may also see my range as somewhat wide to be trying to squeeze.

I guess I read it as him iso-raising, me saying I have a big hand, him 4 betting to say no, I really did have a hand to begin with, and me thinking, yeah but you iso'ed two bad players and you have the button, maybe you have the same hand as me or even slightly worse plus there's now 60 in the pot.

Anyway, he had JJ, which I probably would have flatted rather than 4 bet in his position. Flopped a K but he rivered a third J.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
With MP3 sticking 12 big blinds of dead money in there, I like it. Not only because it makes our pot odds better, but because it increases the range of hands that the button will 4-bet. Plus it can't ever be that wrong to stack AK pre with dead money button vs. blinds. So if it is -EV its only a tiny tiny mistake.

However, I flat this to keep the fishies in. Isolating the 16/13 doesn't sound like a fast track to money.
 
Last edited:
S

Skaplun

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 30, 2010
Total posts
269
Chips
0
the 16/13 should make you hesitant, the others are fishies.. once you are in a prf war with him I'd get worried, his range is pretty much QQ+ here, how many hands do you have on him?
 
Weregoat

Weregoat

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 18, 2009
Total posts
665
Chips
0
button is 16/13 over 80 hands.

Hero is SB with K
spade.gif
, A
club.gif

Button raises to $35, Hero raises to $104.15 (All-In)

I think I found your mistake. Jamming for 100+ BBs with AKo isn't something I do against a 16/13 3-betting me unless I've seen them play their image before, and get caught. Probably not going to happen online in 80 hands.

I'm calling here about 65% of the time, folding 34% of the time, and if I'm on tilt for 1% of the hands I play, I'm jamming.
 
Mase31683

Mase31683

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 27, 2008
Total posts
1,474
Awards
1
Chips
1
Lemme know how flatting 4-bets with a reverse implied odds hand works out for you.

Yeah, flatting 4bets then trying to play your Ace high hand 2/3 of the time isn't so much fun
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
Lemme know how flatting 4-bets with a reverse implied odds hand works out for you.

Especially OOP. Then you might as well shove any flop, like a Stop and Go, but I don't think stop and go theory was meant to apply to 100 bbs deep, unless you have very good reads or are playing HU.

But maybe you meant to flat the first iso-raise rather than the 4 bet? That's an option, given the bad players likely to call. Then we're OOP in a 3 or 4 way pot, but then SPR is much smaller meaning an advantage to better players. If the flop comes A or K high I'm probably committed but I can fold any whiffed flop 4 way.


I'm not overly happy with my play, but I'm not overly impressed with his play either, 4 betting/calling the shove with JJ. I think overall this hand is made difficult by two of us trying to isolate the fish with good hands but no AA/KK from late preflop position.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
btw, thanks all for pointing out what may be me thinking like a 6 max player in late position at a FR table. I open up my thinking pretty wide in late position/blinds and I probably assume the other players are doing so, but at FR I may be off base.
 
Top