$100 NLHE Full Ring: AK IP 3bet pot and I don't like the way I played it. So show me the way.

$100 NL HE Full Ring: AK IP 3bet pot and I don't like the way I played it. So show me the way.

Villain is 21/6/.5 over 48 hands. His fold to 3bet is 0 in 3 chances. He has only gone to SD once so far.


full tilt poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players -
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $104.25
BB: $165.10
UTG: $100.00
UTG+1: $109.90
UTG+2: $107.60
MP1: $101.00
Hero (MP2): $195.90
CO: $70.00
BTN: $97.00

CO posts a big blind ($1)

Pre Flop: ($2.50) Hero is MP2 with A :heart: K :spade:
3 folds, MP1 raises to $3.50, Hero raises to $12, 4 folds, MP1 calls $8.50

Flop: ($26.50) Q :heart: 8 :heart: T :diamond: (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero ???


OK, so I 3bet preflop for value because he's calling with a wide range and I'll get to play in position. Anyone like flatting pre better??

As played pre are you betting this flop or checking back?

nah, never flat pf.

I think betting flop is fine. A delayed cbet is kinda nice too because we get basically the same FE and pay the same price vs 77- (and ~99/89s/whatever), but we get a guaranteed free card on top of it.

When I flop the gutshot with AK I usually check behind, especially since they flopped a set here so often...but if they just call there are so many cards we can use to represent a made hand.

baudib1 said:

When I flop the gutshot with AK I usually check behind, especially since they flopped a set here so often...but if they just call there are so many cards we can use to represent a made hand.

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If that's how you see it you must live in a very scary world.

I generally like c-betting, you have the psychological initiative, and you're not in bad shape with the flop either. You could sell AQ or an overpair with a c-bet.

I do tend to c-bet on flops where I've missed but have several things going for me...I'm guessing the c-bet did not workout.

Since he's called 3/3 3bets, I'm 3betting this for value pre-flop. Even ignoring that stat I'm 3betting in MP, it's only really CO/BTN that I think calling with AK is a good idea.

Flop... eh... I think I spew chips horribly in these spots to be honest so take this for what little it's worth, but I'm betting and calling a raise and firing again on the turn. If he just calls on the flop it's a matter of whether I think he's bad enough to check/call a draw here or not, if I think the draws are in his range I'll bet the turn and if not I'll check the turn for a free card. Giving up if he donks the turn.

BenLZ said:

If that's how you see it you must live in a very scary world.

I generally like c-betting, you have the psychological initiative, and you're not in bad shape with the flop either. You could sell AQ or an overpair with a c-bet.

I do tend to c-bet on flops where I've missed but have several things going for me...I'm guessing the c-bet did not workout.

Click to expand...

who doesn't like c-betting? the problem with cbetting when we flop a gutshot is getting taken off our hand by check-raise where we have to fold when we could have gotten to the turn for free. calling a CR on this board with 3 clean outs and overs is spewy in most cases.

baudib1 said:

who doesn't like c-betting? the problem with cbetting when we flop a gutshot is getting taken off our hand by check-raise where we have to fold when we could have gotten to the turn for free. calling a CR on this board with 3 clean outs and overs is spewy in most cases.

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You might get checkraised. Then again villain has an aggression factor of .5 and is 21/6 - the guy seems to prefer calling over raising.

Why would you fold to a c/r?

We're not in bad shape against a reasonable check-raising range here since the most likely hands we're going to see are draws, Q's and T's, most of which can't take much heat and is certainly slowing down if we don't fold.

We've also got A and K outs (which may be slightly dirty, but are good more often than not) as well as jacks to the effective nuts. We're also not far behind even if check raised. We also have the backdoor flush draw to improve our equity.

If you're ever going to get creative post-flop, this is when you do it. You've got a million outs, a lot of which are to the nuts, you've got position and your opponent doesn't have much that can take much heat.

I never said I would fold to a c/r - you just mentioned a c/r as a potential pitfall to c-betting which is very right, and this would seem to be the only pitfall. I just mentioned that based on his stats villain is pretty passive, and when passive players come alive and start betting you need to be careful.

My main concern is that there are a lot of iffy outs. If he an ace comes he very well might be on AJ, AQ...you've mentioned this. I've just had a lot of bad experiences with passive players, and I know when they start betting that you better have something big. I still think this discussion is purely theoretical since it's very unlikely with those stats that he will be c/r. 21/6 and 3/3 3-bet calls - he likes checking and calling.

I guess if he did c/r I would have to look into how much $ he c/r, the pot size, etc. It's not a clear-cut call for me with this type of player.

I think we might be mixing up who posted what. I never said risking a c/r by cbetting was a bad thing. I was also directing the "why would you fold to a c/r" question at anyone who would, since baudib just said he didn't want to cbet and get taken off his hand.


Ignoring all of that though, I do think the sample size is too small to be very reliable. As far as I'm concerned, any player with only 50 hands of history is more likely to c/r or donk bet a hand like AQ here than they are to c/c.

I think the c/r is often just one pair (or less).

WVHillbilly said:

Villain is 21/6/.5 over 48 hands. His fold to 3bet is 0 in 3 chances. He has only gone to SD once so far.

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Wat ?

So he has raised preflop 3 times out of 48, and has been 3bet every single time he has raised?

With such an aggro table - unless you are the 3bet maniac there - you should probably flat preflop, get squeezed and backraise 4bet all in.

BelgoSuisse said:

Wat ?

So he has raised preflop 3 times out of 48, and has been 3bet every single time he has raised?

With such an aggro table - unless you are the 3bet maniac there - you should probably flat preflop, get squeezed and backraise 4bet all in.

Click to expand...

lol yeah, I guess that's correct. He had been 3bet every time he had raised since I sat down (this was the 2nd time by me so I was responsible for 1 of the other 3).

Im not entirely sure how people play at .50/1$ cuz I play at .10/.25 but here are my thoughts.

I'm not going to place much weight on his 0 in 3 fold to 3bet yet because its only 3 times and he could have had a decent hand and it could have been IP in particular circumstances (i.e isolating) and we dont have much history behind his 3-betting calling history.

But who calls OOP in 3 bet pots preflop then checks this flop? Someone who is setmining, possibly with a good medium to high pair like 66 to JJ (maybe QQ) or who could be playing it too cute calling with suited connectors and hoping to see a free card after his check on this drawey board.

It smells outrageously like he caught a FD and/or GS with his pocket pair, also hoping to check it down to a showdown with his medium pair for cheap or a small bet if the turn and river brick.

Basically he played it like I used to (and sometimes still do) not thinking past the flop, hoping to setmine or hit.

You could cbet here hoping to take down the pot...but checking behind for pot control is also a decent option even though it may cost you the pot if a completion card hits but I prefer checking behind...Id call a small bet if a brick comes on the turn and shut down if he keeps up the pressure on the river.

If we get check-raised on this board, figure his range to be a lot of Qs (AQ/KQ/QJ/QT), some Ts (AT/KT), sets and big draws...if we continue and hit something, are we really stacking with 1 pair on a 3 to broadway board or on a heart?

Wouldn't you take into consideration that he has only raised 3 times in the last ~45mins @ this table?

His range of hands must be decently strong.

I do not object to 3-betting AK IP, however, this board will more then likely hit our opponent's range and will AT LEAST call one bet on the flop.

I think it is a bad idea to c-bet this board, unless you plan to follow through with a couple barrels. It is not even a given whether hitting the A or K is a clean out in this situation.

I just really don't believe you will be getting a lot of folds in this spot very often.

Also, I don't believe you will get C/R a lot on this flop by this particular opponent a lot, unless he has gotten you crushed, in which case he will have you in rough shape.

I don't know why everyone here will think that villan would C/R a 1-pair type hand here, his AF is 0.5 .... if you do get C/R i'd just bail depending on the pot odds his raise lays us.

Had forgotten this one. I ended up checking the flop back and here is the turn action after we hit our Ace:

Full Tilt Poker $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - http://www.thehandconverter.com/hands/556634
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

SB: $104.25
BB: $165.10
UTG: $100.00
UTG+1: $109.90
UTG+2: $107.60
MP1: $101.00
Hero (MP2): $195.90
CO: $70.00
BTN: $97.00

CO posts a big blind ($1)

Pre Flop: ($2.50) Hero is MP2 with A :heart: K :spade:
3 folds, MP1 raises to $3.50, Hero raises to $12, 4 folds, MP1 calls $8.50

Flop: ($26.50) Q :heart: 8 :heart: T :diamond: (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($26.50) A :diamond: (2 players)
MP1 checks, Hero ???

bet $18

I'd say I would check this flop a high % of the time.

On the turn i'd bet for value, your hand is pretty face up by now. Maybe even a smaller bet since his hand looks a lot like JJ/99. I'd feel pretty good about betting 50-70% ($14-18) pot here to get some value from those hands.

Probably bet 50% on the river when a brick comes off.
Is my train of thought missing value ?

Check turn. Not much he's calling worse on this turn and river and just much wider calling range if you bet river rather than turn. Also it lets him bluff the river which you obviously snapcall on 99% of rivers.

If you had a lot more hands on villain, I think bet/folding the turn would be a good play (if these were his stats over a large sample, that is), but here, I'm not sure if I'd go for bet/call or bet/fold. I'm pretty certain that I'd bet, though, because I disagree that there's a lot in his range that he'll be likely to try to bluff the river with, at least compared to what he'll call with (a 2/3rds bet is unlikely to drive out KQ, flushdraws, straightdraws, AJ, etc). So whether or not to call or fold if he raises is secondary to the value in just betting.

FWIW, I check back this flop almost always. The hands we have fold equity against are going to still fold most turns anyway, so we're not forfeiting our chance to bluff by checking back.

F Paulsson said:

If you had a lot more hands on villain, I think bet/folding the turn would be a good play (if these were his stats over a large sample, that is), but here, I'm not sure if I'd go for bet/call or bet/fold. I'm pretty certain that I'd bet, though, because I disagree that there's a lot in his range that he'll be likely to try to bluff the river with, at least compared to what he'll call with (a 2/3rds bet is unlikely to drive out KQ, flushdraws, straightdraws, AJ, etc). So whether or not to call or fold if he raises is secondary to the value in just betting.

FWIW, I check back this flop almost always. The hands we have fold equity against are going to still fold most turns anyway, so we're not forfeiting our chance to bluff by checking back.

Click to expand...

I agree he's not going to bluff a ton but bigger thing is I just think he's going to call a wider range with a river bet than a turn bet. I think naked flush/straight draws that will call a bet on the turn would have bet the turn themselves or else they will be calling a river bet.