$100 NLHE 6-max: Wind Tunnel Call Down w/ 99

John A

John A

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No reads, and only 1 rotation at the table to this point.

Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $1(BB)
SB ($120.05)
HERO ($112.5)
UTG ($100)
HJ ($74.5)
CO ($124.3)
BTN ($160.3)

Dealt to Hero 9:diamond: 9:spade:

UTG Folds , HJ Checks , CO Folds , BTN Folds , SB Raises To $4 , HERO Calls $3 , HJ Folds

Flop ($7) 6:heart: T:spade: 6:spade:
SB Bets $7 , HERO Calls $7

Turn ($21) 6:heart: T:spade: 6:spade: 4:heart:
SB Bets $16 , HERO Calls $16

River ($53) 6:heart: T:spade: 6:spade: 4:heart: 5:diamond:
SB Bets $49 , HERO Calls $49

Common blind spot.
 
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Pre-Flop: 99, in position yeah calling is good here. Any raise drops out a lot of hands you want to stay in (worse PPs). good call here.

Flop: pretty good board here. You do have some draws to be concerned about - but you certainly can't fold here. You could raise here, though you only really fold out... JJ (maybe) and AT (again maybe). So again, call makes sense here.

Turn: This card just shouldn't make a big difference unless, by chance, this gave the guy his redraw or made some combo draw there. Nothing substantial changed here. Though I think raising potentially folds out some more hands that beat you. On the other hand it opens up a the possibility of a 3bet with those combo draws. Hard to call to that 3bet, but you hate to fold and can't really shove either. This card misses enough stuff that anything other than a call is probably a mistake.

River: I'm curious what the villain was thinking here. That 5 completes a 78 or a 23. That's pretty thin. It could be a set here, but its going to be a draw turned bluff as often as anything else. I actually think that if the villain had a set he would be more likely to check and hope to induce a bet from you. That is really the thing that stands out the most. If this is a legitimate hand, what can he expect you to call with that got here? So I guess his range of hands that beats us that would still make some sense would be over pairs.

I'm not convinced this is a must call.

What were your thoughts on his range when you called him there? There is enough that we lose to that this is a little sketchy. I'm a calling station on the river though, so I probably make this call due to all the missed draws out there.

Also, its interesting that he still had around $35 (effective) left in his stack at that point. Kinda has the look of someone wanting to save a couple of dollars on this play so its more profitable long term. I might be over estimating my opponent there, but I wouldn't be surprised to see that at 100nl.
 
John A

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Thanks for the analysis. Good job.

I'd just say that w/o never of us having any reads (since it'd only 6 hands played), and my hands is pretty much face up, what kinds of hands is he looking to get called with that kind of bet sizing?

He has AA-QQ/TT and he's hoping JJ (which I'm likely 3-betting JJ) or 99/88 will pay him off. Or I have AT? It's doubtful he opened 87, unless it's maybe 87s and he wanted to take down the poster. He turned a boat with 44, and he's just blindly betting large hoping I will pay with AT/99/88? There's very few combos I have that are second bets hands that are putting in over 75% of their stack. He could just be a 100nl donk like I said above, and he's just betting strong with a strong hand not thinking about my range.
 
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Thanks for the analysis. Good job.

I'd just say that w/o never of us having any reads (since it'd only 6 hands played), and my hands is pretty much face up, what kinds of hands is he looking to get called with that kind of bet sizing?

To me this is exactly the thing. the over pairs would rather check the river the monsters should expect to get too many folds. Its hard for me to see this as anything other than a massive value bet or a straight bluff.

I am a calling station on the river though. When things look fishy I call. To be fair its my own personal leak, but Im rewarded often enough that its hard to break myself of the habit.

I think its still a call, its just a "head shaking why am I such a fish and wtf is this guy doing" call.
 
John A

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Hehe... funny. Don't ever call yourself a fish though. I'm a big proponent of no negative self talk. That stuff impacts you more than you think. You have to trust your instincts as well in poker and really learn to listen to them.

Any ways, this is my thinking in a nutshell:

So neither of us have reads. This works both ways of course. He doesn't know how I play, vice versa. We're probably not fish if we're sitting with at least 100bbs effective stacks. So the only thing I know is he might be a reg based on stacks and the raise.

My hand is pretty face up after the turn. So assuming he knows this his range becomes extremely polarized, correct? He's either falling into one of two categories. A typical regular that understands that my hand is likely a medium strength hand like 77-99 or AT/KT/QT, or someone who isn't thinking about my range, just has a big hand and is trying to bet a lot because he has a big hand.

So the flop bet is what starts it out. Pot sized on that board, looks like he wants a fold. That bet will get floated a ton if it's a typical $5 flop bet, which is what a strong hand like TT/QQ+ would want.

Turn sizing is on the larger side, not so out of the norm, river sizing is again polarized and doesn't look to get max value if he has QQ+ against my range.

Honestly I snap called and he had Ad7d. No hand, and no draw at any point. He just had a good understanding of my range and was trying to lean on it to get it to fold since my hand was so face up versus his perceived range.

Perceived range is important... that's why you want to be the guy barreling instead of guess/calling like I did. You only do that if you've played much higher stakes and can pick up on a lot of little things. lol

To me this is exactly the thing. the over pairs would rather check the river the monsters should expect to get too many folds. Its hard for me to see this as anything other than a massive value bet or a straight bluff.

I am a calling station on the river though. When things look fishy I call. To be fair its my own personal leak, but Im rewarded often enough that its hard to break myself of the habit.

I think its still a call, its just a "head shaking why am I such a fish and wtf is this guy doing" call.
 
IPlay

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I honestly don't like villains pot bet on the flop if he is trying to bluff, it just screams please fold and with no reads and it being SB vs BB it is hard to say that villain wanted you to think it was a bluff. Is that what made you suspicious and consider calling him down? Well that and no over cards coming out must of been nice. :D
 
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^^ It's BvB at 100NL and a 6T6 flop at that. He reps so few made hands and might not evrn realize it. Most players at this limit (at least in my experience) aren't going to try and level you by bombing 3 streets oop with AA-QQ on a paired board.

But yeah the run out helps too. Did I mention it was BvB. :)
 
Aces2w1n

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Calling behind is such weak play though. Your telling him his top pairs good pretty much. We don't want turn or river most of the time cause we could also be facing overs.

I think we need to reraise on the flop and show strength because we have strength on this board and we should get told whether we are infront/behind with that move (As long as we play other hands similar we will get respected). With just calling behind we are just burning money. He's not letting up so he's gotta be good most of the time here and if he isn't he will pay us off soon enough when we are.


I don't like the spot we are in and we just look like we are giving away money/bleeding :(


I'd definetly put him on a ten or most likely JJ he did raise preflop but meh no reads so it's hard. But I think at 100nl your better off respecting until they give you a reason not to.

I didn't read your reply to your thread John until i already posted this
 
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el_magiciann

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I agree with Aces2w1n you should probably be more agressive at the flop and this way you will calm down the villain on other streets or better end the hand there, villain range is reeally big.
 
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I agree with Aces2w1n you should probably be more agressive at the flop and this way you will calm down the villain on other streets or better end the hand there, villain range is reeally big.


How does being aggressive help us on the flop?

What hands do we fold that beat us?

What hands that are worse are calling us?

How does "calming" the villain do to help us?

How does the villains really big range hurt us? How does it help us?
 
John A

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Calling behind is such weak play though. Your telling him his top pairs good pretty much. We don't want turn or river most of the time cause we could also be facing overs.

I think we need to reraise on the flop and show strength because we have strength on this board and we should get told whether we are infront/behind with that move (As long as we play other hands similar we will get respected). With just calling behind we are just burning money. He's not letting up so he's gotta be good most of the time here and if he isn't he will pay us off soon enough when we are.


I don't like the spot we are in and we just look like we are giving away money/bleeding :(


I'd definetly put him on a ten or most likely JJ he did raise preflop but meh no reads so it's hard. But I think at 100nl your better off respecting until they give you a reason not to.

I didn't read your reply to your thread John until i already posted this

I'm not really concerned about respect, I'm only concerned about making money.

If you raise the flop, what second best hands are you looking to call? If you are 3-bet on the flop after raising, what are you doing?

Most opponents will fire 2 bullets here with air and give up, which I'm fine with calling. A certain percentage will fire 3 with air, even though this is a bad spot. The sizing was primarily why I snap called. I'd expect to see 1/2 to 2/3rds river bet with most value hands versus my obvious hand. Once there's a little bit of info going, there could definitely be a level in this spot (god knows I do it plenty). But w/o info I typically don't expect that yet.
 
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He's triple barreling on an incredibly dry board, but you've pretty much isolated your range to draws or middle pairs which means he can probably profitably barrel. I'm comfortable with this being a call down as he only has to be bluffing 30% of the time for it to be profitable
 
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He's triple barreling on an incredibly dry board, but you've pretty much isolated your range to draws or middle pairs which means he can probably profitably barrel. I'm comfortable with this being a call down as he only has to be bluffing 30% of the time for it to be profitable

AND he is likely bluffing at least that amount.

If he is only bluffing here 25% of the time (which would be strange given bet sizes and the board) then this should be a fast fold.
 
Aces2w1n

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He's triple barreling on an incredibly dry board, but you've pretty much isolated your range to draws or middle pairs which means he can probably profitably barrel. I'm comfortable with this being a call down as he only has to be bluffing 30% of the time for it to be profitable


This is an area I need to know... Like I understand dryboards but how can i estimate the chances of someone bluffing? Do we just go by vpip and history like considering how many times he's played draws aggressive? or barrelled with air?


I've had opponents barrel with less than the draw which is always funny to see :)



Btw John i meant respect as in fold they fold to us and we make a profit even tho it's small but we didn't hit a set and often we can't expect to make a huge profit with these types of hands any win is good with medium pairs unless ofc the boards lower or we hit a set. then the dynamics change a lot .... We take the pot then and there and move on ... make a little bit of money without risk with 9s ... They aren't the best hand to holdup a lot of the time. A lot of times even a fish will get a lucky card on turn or river and we lose out.
 
John A

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Aggression %, wwsf% help in making these decisions, along with the board runout, recent history, bet sizing, etc...

And I totally understood what you meant by respect. I literally meant, I don't care if they don't respect me. I don't mind someone barreling into me since I think I have a pretty good understanding of when to call down or fold. It's always a fun space to explore though to make sure you're understanding situations correctly. I'm always learning something new here.

This is an area I need to know... Like I understand dryboards but how can i estimate the chances of someone bluffing? Do we just go by vpip and history like considering how many times he's played draws aggressive? or barrelled with air?


I've had opponents barrel with less than the draw which is always funny to see :)



Btw John i meant respect as in fold they fold to us and we make a profit even tho it's small but we didn't hit a set and often we can't expect to make a huge profit with these types of hands any win is good with medium pairs unless ofc the boards lower or we hit a set. then the dynamics change a lot .... We take the pot then and there and move on ... make a little bit of money without risk with 9s ... They aren't the best hand to holdup a lot of the time. A lot of times even a fish will get a lucky card on turn or river and we lose out.
 
Aces2w1n

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True...

The other line I don't mind doing with 99... is check check he raises and I reraise and he shows with lower pockets a lot of the time :)

micros it works well.
 
transformpoker

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A great player will make you close to indifferent to calling or folding in this spot with a hand like 99. On this particular river, enough semi-bluffing hands that your opponent might/should have from the turn have missed that he can credibly represent enough bluffs to also value bet thinly.

Perhaps more importantly though are general player tendencies for this buy in level and the reactions caused by the hidden information that you possess, i.e. you have two nines and your opponent is less likely to hold two nines. Put another way, your opponent is less likely to be semi-bluffing, given the information you have about your own hand and the effects on your opponent's distribution for betting the river. Both ideas require elaboration.

Regarding the general player tendencies for the spot and for the buy in limit, players simply are not value betting thinly for this sizing that often. For a pot sized bet, regardless of board run out, weaker players typically do not have hands like JT in this spot, even though the hand may be a value bet for a better player to make a hand like 99 or ace-high indifferent to calling on the river. In other words, because of the buy in level, your opponent's range is made up of incredibly strong hands and missed semi-bluffs from the turn, of which there are many (over cards, straight draws like 98, and 2 flush draws). Now, it's all about how often your opponent has the ability to make a disciplined check-fold, rather than attempt to bluff too often (for this sizing, at least) for how often he's value betting.

The hidden information that we possess discounts our opponent's bluffing distribution a bit. Those 98 missed semi-bluff gut shots from the turn are much less likely now that we hold two nines. However, there are so many other potential semi-bluffs that also have more equity on average when called on the turn that discounting a hand like 98 is not a large factor in determining the best river play with our hand. What is relevant is that our opponent's value range is not discounted at all. In an attempt to explain this idea succinctly, imagine that your opponent guesses your known river distribution and seeks to make you indifferent to calling or folding against his river bluffing strategy. Sometimes, you have ace-high or 99, and sometimes you have Tx as your most likely made hands. What that means is that sometimes your opponent has a profitable bluff against ace-high and a losing bluff against Tx to average to a bluffing strategy that makes you very close to indifferent to calling with a hand like 99, a hand that is right down the middle.

So if we're to understand our opponent's play as unknown or closer to optimal, then our best course of action is likely to call as 99 is markedly better than ace-high and some unimproved flush draws with which we may reach the river. 99 is high enough up in our distribution that it's a close call, unless we slow play all of our 6x hands, which we probably don't want to do on this draw heavy board texture as we can represent enough semi-bluffs by raising the flop that we should expect a better return by raising for value, at least some of the time. Of course, slow playing has it's merits, but taking one action all the time with the strongest portion of your hands makes life easy for your opponent. The reason that we want to call with 99 here, even if it's a slightly losing play, is to avoid offering an exploitable bluff for our opponent.

In counter, 99 is certainly on the fringe. It's intuitively on that line between calling and folding, and rightfully so if you run the numbers and consider the odds that the pot is offering you (how largely your opponent bluffed). What we can likely assume is that because the hand is on the fringe and that most players at this buy in level do not bluff for this size and mostly value bet strong hands for this size, that close calls become close folds. This is a default exploitive strategy adapted to counter-act the average $100NL player's strategy of not bluffing often for a pot sized bet on the river in proportion to those strong value bets. We are relying on a population bet sizing tell of sorts to make a slightly better decision than we might than if we had absolutely no information on this player.
 
Arjonius

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I literally meant, I don't care if they don't respect me.
This is a different topic, but is it better when opponents respect you or when they don't? I'd lean toward the latter, but that's just a feeling, not anything I've actually thought about.
 
Karozi615

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3bet pre

As played you have to check/call all 3 streets
 
Karozi615

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FYI if you 3bet pre this hand ends before the river (most likely), you control the betting (and get a free card) and your opponents hand strength becomes transparent

As played your hand is vastly underrepped and you can't fold
 
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FYI if you 3bet pre this hand ends before the river (most likely), you control the betting (and get a free card) and your opponents hand strength becomes transparent

As played your hand is vastly underrepped and you can't fold

Doesnt 3betting also eliminate a number of hands we want to stay in? like worse pocket pairs and other mediocre hands?

3betting puts our medium strength hand against only his better hands when we hit the flop.

I think calling is flat out better than 3betting here. The only better hands we fold are....TT. maybe JJ.
 
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As played your hand is vastly underrepped and you can't fold

Agree that it's not a fold. Very much disagree that our hand is vastly under repped.

I think calling is flat out better than 3betting here. The only better hands we fold are....TT. maybe JJ.

Jacks and tens aren't going anywhere. Anyway I'm not 3balling 9s against a complete unknown at hundo nl.
 
Karozi615

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it's a blind vs blind spot at 100NL,
you have 99 in position
you claim that worse will fold?
Is it really that simple at 100nl?
What if the SB understands that you understand they can open a wide range.
We have a premium hand in position. If we don't raise here we are losing value, PERIOD.
I honestly cannot believe that nobody here has pointed to the fact that the appropriate move at this level is a 3bet.
Yeah, as played I guess calling down every street is OKAY but you never really know where your at, you have no control, and when this guy shows you aces your going to feel kind of stupid.
99 in a HU pot should be played quickly, and when you don't 3bet pre you
1. lose control of the betting action
2.put yourself in a position where you have to call down with an underpair

i'm sorry maybe I just see things differently but I have quite a bit of experience at these stakes on bovada and I can say with confidence that you need to mix in the 3bet pre.
obviously a combination of flatting/3betting is essential but if this isn't a consideration, (it hasen't been mentioned once on this thread) then yall are just wrong lol

uber, you really think JJ and TT are going to fold out? your crazy man.
at this level I would expect any PP to call a 3bet, any Ax to call a 3bet, and probably a mix of gap connectors and raggy hands 4betting 5-10% of the time
Also once again if you cant understand why out hand is underrepped then I cant help you... Based on an unknown opponents line I might call this 3barrel as light as AQ, but then again AQ is ANOTHER hand I would have 3bet pre
 
c9h13no3

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This hand is cool. Just about every line has merit.

The main thing is I'm folding the river as played. How many bluffs does villain really have in his range? The board ran out blank as shit, it's paired, your line looks like you're bluff catching. It'd be a pretty retarded time for your opponent to bluff as you almost always have some showdown value.
 
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it's a blind vs blind spot at 100NL,

uber, you really think JJ and TT are going to fold out? your crazy man.

No I'm not. That was my point. What better hands would we fold? I listed the two that maybe, might possibly sometimes do it. But I don't imagine it happening.

Just trying to point out that raising there won't get a fold from a better hand. I probably could have said it better.
 
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