$100 NLHE 6-max: What do we do OTF, OTT and OTR?

Aballinamion

Aballinamion

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 26/22/3

Hi there CardsChat community! I posted this hand on professor's Anhalt thread, Polished Poker Vol I (https://www.cardschat.com/forum/cash-games-11/polished-poker-vol-i-study-group-227214//), but I would love to know what the cash population think about it.

UTG: 98.60 BB
MP: 103.3 BB
Hero CO: 180.7 BB
Villain BTN: 98.1 BB
SB: 99.5 BB
BB: 148 BB

Hero CO has 8d7d

SB post 0.50; BB posts 1; folds; folds; Hero CO raises 2.38 bb, Villain BTN 3-bets to 7.13 BB, folds; folds; folds; folds; Hero CO calls:

heads-up
Pot size: 15.76 blinds
Flop: Kd6cAd

Villain BTN C-bets 1/3 pot (4.94 bb), Hero CO... (?)

Let's assume we do call:

Turn: 3h
Pot size: 25.64 blinds

Hero CO checks. Is there something else we could do here if we do call the flop? Is this 3h a good card for bluffing?
Villain BTN checks behind. I found this strange, because okay checking its Kings for protection because I can have some Ax here, but if BTN had any ace, it shouldn't be checking behind here right? So I increased the bluff range of V after he checks-behind turn.
IMO 3-betting range of Villain should be betting this turn again, such as AA, KK, AK, even A6 for protection.

River: 9d
Pot size: 25.64 blinds

We complete a mid flush. As I believe that V would have more bluffs than values on its range I am usually checking almost anything here, such as AK, A9, A6, A3, I guess I would not bet, my sets would not bet here as well such as 66, 33, 99, we almost never have KK and AA here, anyways, given that I am deep stacked I have more odds for calling 3-bets for setmining versus fishy style, and besides all of that I thought that if I checked turn Villain could try to overbluff this river with a bunch of stuff.
Summarizing, Hero CO checks and Villain BTN bets 18.51 bb. Our action?

After a couple of comments I will put the results. Thanks everyone.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Do we have any reads on V? I probably fold to the 3 bet as I don't like playing 8 high OOP to the aggressor, certainly 87dd is low in our PFR range. If we are defending this low what are we b/f pre flop? If we continue I like the call on the flop and the x on the turn. River I probably lead for full pot for value. Most Vs aren't 3 betting QJdd or JTdd. As played I'm all in, V has half his stack in and will be in a super gross spot if he doesn't have a flush. If he 3 bet a bigger flush pre then make a note and move on. One of the dangers of lower suited connectors is the RIO. If we are playing them this way in a 3 bet pot OOP I think we have to go for max value. Otherwise fold pre in my opinion.
 
Aballinamion

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The Leveling Wars, Episode I: The Fish Menace

Do we have any reads on V? I probably fold to the 3 bet as I don't like playing 8 high OOP to the aggressor, certainly 87dd is low in our PFR range. If we are defending this low what are we b/f pre flop? If we continue I like the call on the flop and the x on the turn. River I probably lead for full pot for value. Most Vs aren't 3 betting QJdd or JTdd. As played I'm all in, V has half his stack in and will be in a super gross spot if he doesn't have a flush. If he 3 bet a bigger flush pre then make a note and move on. One of the dangers of lower suited connectors is the RIO. If we are playing them this way in a 3 bet pot OOP I think we have to go for max value. Otherwise fold pre in my opinion.

Thanks for your attention here bud. Yes, Villain is a spewish fish 3-betting too much for a regular table, this is why I decided to call 3-bet, plus the sizing was not very scary.
Besides, this Villain is broken stack, and at 100 NLHE I never respect that.
Yeah, after reading your analysis I started wondering to myself that I played this hand very passively versus a fish with a pretty fair 3-bet range.
I was scary of jamming all-in river, after Villain bets 18.51 blinds, because if I go all-in river:

A) Villain only pays me with better flushes (?)
B) Villain fold almost its entire value range and certainly will fold all the bluffs (?)

I thought that when Villain checks Turn behind it didn't had many value hands, such its Ax, that should be betting this turn almost 100% of times.

But I liked very much your ideias, thanks for your patience and time!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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If V is a spewish fish then how do we know he wont call off with K9 or 99 or KxQd or some other weird Ax or something here? We obviously cant fold. I can see why flatting is attractive and the check on the turn is interesting. With reads though, I think I still prefer applying max pressure to spewfish's range. Even if he folds I think it has meta game benefits. If he calls and loses that's great. And if he calls and wins it sucks but I think the times V somehow finds a hero call with Ax, Kx, 2 pair, sets, and even smaller flushes and the times he folds and is left wondering are much more than the times he has us beat. I'd expect an aggressive spewfish to triple barrel a real flush draw on a board that's not paired at least most of the time.
 
Aballinamion

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Bluffing fishes out of position?

If V is a spewish fish then how do we know he wont call off with K9 or 99 or KxQd or some other weird Ax or something here? We obviously cant fold. I can see why flatting is attractive and the check on the turn is interesting. With reads though, I think I still prefer applying max pressure to spewfish's range. Even if he folds I think it has meta game benefits. If he calls and loses that's great. And if he calls and wins it sucks but I think the times V somehow finds a hero call with Ax, Kx, 2 pair, sets, and even smaller flushes and the times he folds and is left wondering are much more than the times he has us beat. I'd expect an aggressive spewfish to triple barrel a real flush draw on a board that's not paired at least most of the time.


Good observation, I didn't notice that Villain's flush draws also should be barreling turn, thanks again, this is why the forum is so good, we miss so many thinks during a solo hand analysis and when we lose our pride and put ourselves to the test, we learn quite a great deal.
I am totally on board of what you said, of check-jamming this river, if I also check-jam this river with missed straight and flush draws. Any ace of diamond, without a flush we are check-jamming, some hands that have a combo diamond + SD such as QT and QJ, we are also jamming (to balance our range/make the V's readings very hard because we polarize all the bluffs and all the nuts, and we mean, call if you dare).
Otherwise I think our range becomes very crystal clear and easy to exploit.
If we put all of our range on the paper here, 22-JJ because we never have QQ+ here, A3s, A6s, A9s, AKs and AKo (all the combos without the ace of diamond of course), some spaz K9s that we decided to cold call x fish because we believe we are ahead of V's 3-betting range, however K9s is not so good for 4-bet/light here, plus we have all the sets that are not top, 99, 66 and 33, plus 87s+ with the combo diamond: 87s, 98s, T9s, JTs, QJs, KQ, with onlythe Queen of Diamonds, and AK with the kind of diamond we also never have it here (never is too strong, almost never). We have a ton of value hands here, which induces me to think that we are calling this river in a higher frequency than jamming.
I guess the EV here is very close between calling River or jamming it, if we do jam river with the same ammount of bluffs in proportion to the value hands (they are quite a bit).

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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c0rnBr34d

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I like how you consistently find bluff combos for balance. I need to get in a habit of doing this, even if I don't pull the trigger on them all the time. Coming from a live setting so much of my game is based on exploiting with little regard to balance. I've been doing ok in the micros without much balance as well but I'm sure I'll need to focus on it if I ever want to crush 200NL+
 
Aballinamion

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PioSolver

I like how you consistently find bluff combos for balance. I need to get in a habit of doing this, even if I don't pull the trigger on them all the time. Coming from a live setting so much of my game is based on exploiting with little regard to balance. I've been doing ok in the micros without much balance as well but I'm sure I'll need to focus on it if I ever want to crush 200NL+

Thanks bud, PioSolver help us a lot when it comes to this GTO perfect solutions. I used a lot in the past but today only very complicated spots I put to the solver to see if I my memory is still working.
Sorry, I made a terrible mistake analysing because both Ace of Diamonds and King of Diamonds are on the board, lol, so the flush nuts here would be a Queen of Diamonds. Exchange the situation, we are shoving our missed flush nuts here with whatever, Ad, Kd, Qd, even Jd, this case the perfect combo for jamming for bluff are exactly the missed draws of straight with the Queen of Diamonds, and of course the nut flush itself, if we do expect swewyfish to be paying here with Kx, Ax, two pair and all of its nonsense 3-betting range OTR, thanks for your kindness!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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Hello friend, good to see you in the mids stakes. Professor Anhalt always scold me, so he will probably tell you to fold on the flop. We really are behind with combinations like 9-T; J-T, Q-T (possibly with diamond blockers, all of them of greater scale within our reach) + middle pockets that block our structure.
I think a brick like 3h doesn't change things much. There are still many rank V combinations that have equity against us. So it is unlikely to build efficient fold equity on this texture. Maybe an Ax can bet for value on the turn, but a Kx could also induce bluffs on the river, especially if it can block a street of diamonds. Any other combination of the villain, he could lead here for protection.
With 7d-8d we have a weak bluff catcher, barely 46% protection against other larger scales. So the most balanced movement here would be a protection call. With xd-Td we could do 3-bet OOP, because now we don't block lines like Qd-X; Jd-X that they might want to catch us.
Greetings.
 
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c0rnBr34d

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Hello friend, good to see you in the mids stakes. Professor Anhalt always scold me, so he will probably tell you to fold on the flop. We really are behind with combinations like 9-T; J-T, Q-T (possibly with diamond blockers, all of them of greater scale within our reach) + middle pockets that block our structure.
I think a brick like 3h doesn't change things much. There are still many rank V combinations that have equity against us. So it is unlikely to build efficient fold equity on this texture. Maybe an Ax can bet for value on the turn, but a Kx could also induce bluffs on the river, especially if it can block a street of diamonds. Any other combination of the villain, he could lead here for protection.
With 7d-8d we have a weak bluff catcher, barely 46% protection against other larger scales. So the most balanced movement here would be a protection call. With xd-Td we could do 3-bet OOP, because now we don't block lines like Qd-X; Jd-X that they might want to catch us.
Greetings.
This feels way stronger than a bluff catcher to me. As you mention we are behind exactly 5 combos of QJ, QT, JT, J9, T9 of diamonds. This is similar combo wise to flopping bottom set and being behind only 6 combos of oversets. In that case we would be debating call or raise just like in this case I think it makes sense to debate call or raise. The reason I suggested raising here is:
1 - Vs rarely 3 bet Q high, J high, or T high even if they are suited so giving all 5 combos here is probably optimistic.
2 - If he's 3 betting Qd5d or something crazy then he also has all types of trash here that bluffs.
3 - We expect an aggressive V to barrel turn at least most of the when checked to in position with no show down value but some equity in the hand (flush draw).
4 - We want to give fish the opportunity to make large mistakes when we are as strong as this and V is unlikely to have us beat.
 
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gustav197poker

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This feels way stronger than a bluff catcher to me. As you mention we are behind exactly 5 combos of QJ, QT, JT, J9, T9 of diamonds. This is similar combo wise to flopping bottom set and being behind only 6 combos of oversets. In that case we would be debating call or raise just like in this case I think it makes sense to debate call or raise. The reason I suggested raising here is:
1 - Vs rarely 3 bet Q high, J high, or T high even if they are suited so giving all 5 combos here is probably optimistic.
2 - If he's 3 betting Qd5d or something crazy then he also has all types of trash here that bluffs.
3 - We expect an aggressive V to barrel turn at least most of the when checked to in position with no show down value but some equity in the hand (flush draw).
4 - We want to give fish the opportunity to make large mistakes when we are as strong as this and V is unlikely to have us beat.


You're right, but an aggressive villain could go out of his line and want to cheat with a bet on the river. Also hands like Td-xd; Qd-Td; Jd-Td fit perfectly into a range of 3 preflop bets, especially if he is an aggressive villain and play from BTN. Obviously if you want to play at the top alone of your range you jam here is the most profitable option.
 
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Gratitude

Hello friend, good to see you in the mids stakes. Professor Anhalt always scold me, so he will probably tell you to fold on the flop. We really are behind with combinations like 9-T; J-T, Q-T (possibly with diamond blockers, all of them of greater scale within our reach) + middle pockets that block our structure.
I think a brick like 3h doesn't change things much. There are still many rank V combinations that have equity against us. So it is unlikely to build efficient fold equity on this texture. Maybe an Ax can bet for value on the turn, but a Kx could also induce bluffs on the river, especially if it can block a street of diamonds. Any other combination of the villain, he could lead here for protection.
With 7d-8d we have a weak bluff catcher, barely 46% protection against other larger scales. So the most balanced movement here would be a protection call. With xd-Td we could do 3-bet OOP, because now we don't block lines like Qd-X; Jd-X that they might want to catch us.
Greetings.

Hi dear friend, thank you for your attention here. Actually I am not playing mid stakes. This is a hand I played very long ago and I would like to understand why I did what I did at the times to see if fits with the way I am thinking today, because my objective is to return from 2 NLHE to 200 NLHE like I did in the past (it was easier), and I need to change a bunch of things to be playing 2 NLHE, and try to play the most ABC game as possible, and as Luepso wisely told me, to let my ego aside.
I don't think I am easily folding 1/3 c-bet flop with all of my range that calls 3-bet. If fish goes for 1/2 pot than I can fold a little bit more but a naked flush draw seems okay to be calling here and folding to c-bet turn when it comes a bomb, I guess.
I think the call OTR is a good option too, because 87dd is indeed a weak bluff catcher, although I agree with Cornbread when it says that spewyfish should be betting its flush draws or any draws OTT.
Thank you very much for our wise observations, I'll take into account, have a nice day!

Best Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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fundiver199

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Preflop
I might call a 3-bet with a suited connector, if I am in position. I rarely do it out of position, unless its undersized, which is not the case here.

Flop
Definitely not folding of course, but also not taking aggressive action, since his range is all over this board. Perfect that he did this down-betting and allowed us to see a cheap turn.

Turn
No reason to do anything other than check to him again and then evaluate, if he bet. He checked back, which is of course perfect.

River
Since he checked back on the turn, he probably has some kind of marginal showdown value, so I prefer leading out for value. As played easy check-jam. There are only like 3 combos of better flushes, that beat you, and many people are barreling their flushdraws on the turn.
 
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Preflop
I might call a 3-bet with a suited connector, if I am in position. I rarely do it out of position, unless its undersized, which is not the case here.

Flop
Definitely not folding of course, but also not taking aggressive action, since his range is all over this board. Perfect that he did this down-betting and allowed us to see a cheap turn.

Turn
No reason to do anything other than check to him again and then evaluate, if he bet. He checked back, which is of course perfect.

River
Since he checked back on the turn, he probably has some kind of marginal showdown value, so I prefer leading out for value. As played easy check-jam. There are only like 3 combos of better flushes, that beat you, and many people are barreling their flushdraws on the turn.

Thank you very much friend!

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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The preflop raise range of an aggressive villain (2-bet) includes the most likely speculative combos such as: Qd-Jd; Qd-Td; Jd-Td and in a lower structure, the following less likely combos: Qd-8d; Jd-8d; Jd-7d; Td-8d. I prefer to block the most probable combos, with a combination like Td-8d and not block the least probable ones with our 8d-7d hand. However I completely agree on line x / jam here if we use a GTO approach.
 
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Showdown

Well, thank you very much everyone who dedicated their times on analysing this hand.
Recreational comes to showdown with:


Recreational BTN shows 8s6s

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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gustav197poker

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Well, thank you very much everyone who dedicated their times on analysing this hand.
Recreational comes to showdown with:


Recreational BTN shows 8s6s

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa


Look how interesting Carlos. There is also another very bad hand that could play IP in a super wide range, Td-6d. In fact, this type of hand could make more sense in a villain of those characteristics before that 8s-6s.
 
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fundiver199

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So basically he turned bottom pair into a bluff, when the flush completed.
 
Aballinamion

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Look how interesting Carlos. There is also another very bad hand that could play IP in a super wide range, Td-6d. In fact, this type of hand could make more sense in a villain of those characteristics before that 8s-6s.

Thank you very much friend, yes, this type of Villain use to be very creative and attack our rank aggressively preflop with a pretty sizeable range structure. I believe we are losing here sometimes, of course, but the times we are right it compensates.
I guess I would be jamming this river sometimes, and this player will have me with Td6d, but given that its 3-bet preflop range is universal, if we miss the flush on the river and it comes a brick and Villain bets, we can put up all-in bluff with a non-sense missed flush draw 8 high, to force it to leave hands like 4th pair, and I guess that it would be folding its 4th more than 90% of times, what makes our bluff on rivers that doesn't complete a flush very profitable versus this aggro type of recreational, who bets for information on a river where, if I was on its shoes, I would be checking-behind river 100% of times, because I am already aware that a 100% of times that CO ships all-in, I have to fold 100% of times.

Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
Aballinamion

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So basically he turned bottom pair into a bluff, when the flush completed.

Yeah, thank you friend. What do you think about this move? If you were on Villain's shoes would you be 3-betting BTN x CO versus a TAG who folds to 3-bet 38% of times (CO x BTN) using combos, as gustav197poker quoted, such as Td6d, Td7d, 9d8d, 8d,6d, and all other suited combos possible, such as 8s6s, which is bluff catching (nothing) non-sense on a River like this.
Would you assume a tight could fold Kx, Ax, isn't very risky for BTN/Villain to be trying to make Hero/CO to fold its trashes when it was given a fair price?


Regards;

Carlos 'Aballinamion' Barbosa
 
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