$100 NLHE 6-max: Two LAGs clash CO vs. BTN, 4-bet pot, 200 deep, postflop line?

c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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$100 NL HE 6-max: Two LAGs clash CO vs. BTN, 4-bet pot, 200 deep, postflop line?

Villain is a 33/28/39%(7.7) over 400 hands. He 3-bets 24% on the button (15% overall). He does all the usual tricks (barreling scare cards, 4-betting light, whatever) but he hasn't flatted a 4-bet yet that I know of.

Comments on my line? I realize this is kinda a read based situation, but I'd like to get some general commentary on if my assumptions make sense. I think he's capable of bluffing the ace river, more than he'll call a v-bet with worse. I didn't c-bet since I didn't really think I could call a raise (and laggy players bluff-raise stuff). I think my 4-bet is also a hair on the large side.


Ultimate Bet, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players

BB: $36 (36 bb)
MP: $134.14 (134.1 bb)
Hero (CO): $370.45 (370.5 bb)
BTN: $218.15 (218.2 bb)
SB: $190.10 (190.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with J K
MP calls $1, Hero raises to $5, BTN raises to $14, 3 folds, Hero raises to $43, BTN calls $29

Flop: ($88.50) 79 K♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($88.50) 8 (2 players)
Hero bets $65, BTN calls $65

River: ($218.50) A♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $110.15 and is all-in, Hero calls $110.15
 
Behrens900

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his preflop action to me tells me he has an ace. I put him on AK, or Ax hearts, maybe something like A10 hearts. He would bet the flop if he had AK I think, so I throw that out. With his call on the turn I think you are ahead. To me he is looking for an ace or a heart on the river, and his all in makes it want to look like a bluff of the ace when he really wants the call. Interested to know what he actually had.
 
c9h13no3

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his preflop action to me tells me he has an ace. I put him on AK, or Ax hearts, maybe something like A10 hearts. He would bet the flop if he had AK I think, so I throw that out. With his call on the turn I think you are ahead. To me he is looking for an ace or a heart on the river, and his all in makes it want to look like a bluff of the ace when he really wants the call. Interested to know what he actually had.
An ace high flush draw bets this flop.
 
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switch0723

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just a quick question

What range of hands are you putting him on that call a 4bet, call the turn and shove that river that you beat in general?

q,t is pretty much the only hand that doesnt have showdown value so has a reason to shove here, but his turn call is horrid if he does have q,t
 
c9h13no3

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What range of hands are you putting him on that call a 4bet, call the turn and shove that river that you beat in general?
Well, I honestly have no idea what he flats a 4-bet with. Obviously he can do this with TT-AA, AQ+. The real question is how wide he flats in this particular scenario.

The dynamic between two lags is kinda like a game of chicken. As soon as we sit down, he knows I can 4-bet light, especially this deep. So by that logic, I'm pretty sure he can take it to the next level and call a 4-bet light. The real question is what doesn't bet the flop, calls the turn, and shoves the river?

Obviously any ace that makes it to the river is likely firing. So I'd say he could legitly have A9, AK, AA, KK, AT in his range (with AK/KK/AA discounted). Maybe A6s. The question is, what other hands will he bluff with once the A hits? Does he turn TT/JJ/J9/66 into a bluff here? I'm inclined to think that he might, and I don't think he will float just an ace here like AQ or AJ. So I think the ace is really just a good card for him to bluff (or it gave him a monster two pair).

Since my range looks weak on the turn, I think he floats me a good bit here. And the ace is just such an enticing card to bluff, I think he shoves it with a huge chunk of all his turn floats.
 
c9h13no3

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Villain had 36 here, and I scooped the pot. You guys can now go back to discussing "tough spots" like Should I stack off with QQ preflop? "Thanks" for all the "feedback".
 
F Paulsson

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Ignoring results for a moment:

Flatting a 4b IP preflop is... Well, I'd halfway assume it's a hand like AQs or 88-JJ. If he's good, even AK fits the bill, since he should be reluctant to get it in 200 deep with AK pre. Some of the time, I guess this could be AA as well, trying not to lose a customer. This is all assuming that it's a decent player. I don't give 33/28-type players credit for being good. In the vast majority of cases, they're just spewy lagtards.

If he's good, then answering the question "what calls the turn and shoves the river" is easy: AK, AA and maybe 88/99 if he finds his way there with those hands. Maybe, just maybe, TT as well (calling the turn with an OESD and figuring you might be bluffing) but I'm not convinced he'd bet the river with TT, because while you may fold JJ and QQ, he's targetting a pretty small range with his bluff.

If he's reckless - which I think his stats indicate - then all bets are off and he could be doing this with anything. Including AJ and AT and whatnot. It's near impossible to handread vs. a spewmonkey.
 
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switch0723

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Villain had 36 here, and I scooped the pot. You guys can now go back to discussing "tough spots" like Should I stack off with QQ preflop? "Thanks" for all the "feedback".

you have to remember that your the only person i know of that plays your crazy maniacal style, so its incredibly hard for us to know how to play the hands you do and give proper feedback because we just aren't accustomed to your style. I would never expect to 4bet k,j and get called by 3,6 so its difficult for us to put villain on ranges and to put what range villain puts you on
 
Deco

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ach shame u posted the results I liked the look of this one. Well I'll give it a shot anyway.

His line does not add up, on the turn he called.
Now to call this turn he would need some sort of value in his hand, as said before the draws would bet this flop, so he wants us to believe he has a pair here, now are prime scare card comes down and he bets.

He wants us to believe he called a 4bet with A7-A9, there far too dominatable against a 4bet pots range, I cant see a random ace which hasn't paired coming along for the ride unless he's floating us, in which case we have 100% of his range bluffing the river and the calls a no brainer.

So were up against two pair or a bluff here against a very aggressive player were a scarecards come down on the river. If we decide only the suited aces would have stayed with us preflop and even then they have to be negativly weighted as its unlikely (although you know this player better than me) that doesn't leave the range he's representing with many legitimate combos.

Add to this he likes bluffing scare cards along with that he's representing a tiny range means I think this is a comfortable call.
(shame I dunt get credit for bein right as uv gone and bloody posted the hand already;) )
 
slycbnew

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In terms of the game of chicken being played between two LAG's - let's say the same Villain's playing against a solid conventional TAG. The TAG plays the hand exactly the same way c9 played it through the turn. Would Villain play the hand on the river exactly the same way against the TAG?

In other words, is Villain's play based on his perception of Hero, or would he make this play against anyone?
 
blankoblanco

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well i mean i guess i read the hand under the impression that he was a "good" LAG, or at least decent since you didn't say otherwise and his stats seem reasonable. his turn call seems terrible since there's only half pot left to bluff, and he can hardly rep much but draws since all his hands would have shoved already (and heart draws prob bet flop). if he's trying to rep a hand trying to get to showdown like TT-QQ, A9, whatever, that won't work well either since it's super doubtful he'd shove river with those unimproved, yet he has to bet to win

so do you think there's any decent justification at all to his turn call? i ask because i don't know if a) there's some good reason for it and he's not bad, or b) you think he's a bad LAG and thought he was at the time, or c) you thought he was decent at the time but didn't find out until after this that he wasn't. i would say that affects the hand a ton

basically i don't think any of us thought a hand like that was in his range at all so you're not going to get much advice that fits. did you think a hand like that was in his range at the time?
 
OzExorcist

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*walks in late*

Trying to ignore the result, this looks to me like the villain has just decided that the ace is a scare card for you.

Some of the time he'll have it, some of the time he won't but he only needs to be bluffing (or semi-bluffing with something we beat) what, one in four times for the call to be profitable? If that's the case, based on what you've told us I think I call this most of the time too.

As for the rest of the line, I probably agree about four-betting a little smaller. Betting say $34 still makes the same statement, probably gets three-bet bluffs to fold just as often and loses us less money if the villain shoves (assuming we'd fold to a five-bet / shove). Plus we're playing a slightly more manageable pot if the villain just flat calls.

With the size of the pot as played, c-betting the flop is asking to play for stacks. Plus IDK how much seeing the results is affecting my thinking here, but for some reason I'm feeling I'd be happier calling a shove or check-raising this flop than I would leading it, just because villain should be bluffing at that flop so wide.
 
c9h13no3

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so do you think there's any decent justification at all to his turn call? i ask because i don't know if a) there's some good reason for it and he's not bad, or b) you think he's a bad LAG and thought he was at the time, or c) you thought he was decent at the time but didn't find out until after this that he wasn't
http://www.pokertableratings.com/absolute-player-search/hiiiiiiiigh

He's obviously a pretty decent LAG. Or at least a winning LAG. And I thought he was a good lag at the time, but I wasn't sure what stuff he was capable of postflop. And even LAGs can adjust poorly to stuff that I do (like 4-bet KJs).
 
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