$100 NLHE 6-max: TPTK raised on mono board in iso spot

$100 NL HE 6-max: TPTK raised on mono board in iso spot

BTN's a huge fish and BB is a decent reg; 21/17/3 (%29), 3bets %8 and loves to raise and float cbets.

I've been iso'ing the btn tons and BB hasn't done all that much to counter it, only occasionally 3betting. Haven't really tangled with him today.

I think BB can raise the naked Ac, some bluffs, monsters obv, but I'm not sure about KQ/KJ type hands. I'm guessing he'd flat those.

Our plan for the hand? Keep stack sizes in mind.

party poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $94.83 (94.8 bb)
Hero (SB): $188.74 (188.7 bb)
BB: $148.96 (149 bb)
UTG: $163.09 (163.1 bb)
MP1: $122.23 (122.2 bb)
MP2: $66.29 (66.3 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with K♥ A♠
3 folds, CO calls $1, Hero raises to $5.50, BB calls $4.50, CO folds

Flop: ($12) 8♣ K♣ 6♣ (2 players)
Hero bets $8.50, BB raises to $30, Hero ...

wow this really sucks being so deep. I don't see anything to do here other than fold. Raises on a monotone board are extremely strong in general and you are 150 bb deep. I cant see villain getting out of line too often here. I think folding is fine. I think you have extremely little equity here most of the time.

I'd fold.
were either a little ahead or way behind, I just cant see KQ etc doing this and essentially turning their hand into a bluff.

Is checking behind on the flop an option?
When a nonclub hits we have much better equity and will be able to control the pot when we are truly ****ed.

totally agree with whats already been stated.

dont overvalue TPTK, chances are its just full tilts software doing what it does best....making it look like your way ahead when your probably in over your head.

my guess would be he played 88 or 66 or hell he could have played 2 3 of clubs. surely its best to fold here imo

I would fold as played. Reverse implied odds are really bad here with the board texture and stack sizes. Instead of leading out, I think ch/calling here might be better on the flop if he's aggressive. That way you can control the pot size, and reevaluate your equity vs his range on the turn. So maybe ch/call flop, lead blank turn and go from there.

PattyR said:

chances are its just full tilts software doing what it does best....making it look like your way ahead when your probably in over your head.

Click to expand...

Now that would be something to get the conspiracy nuts talking - HH says this hand got played on Party

This is one of those my-head-hurts hands. We're getting bluffed or semibluffed a lot but I don't see there being much we can do about it. Villain probably has a very good idea what type of hand we have, and he's got position on us.

As played I'm OK with folding because most of the time we stand to lose a bunch more than the $14 we've already committed if we continue.

OzExorcist said:

... We're getting bluffed or semibluffed a lot but I don't see there being much we can do about it. Villain probably has a very good idea what type of hand we have, and he's got position on us.

As played I'm OK with folding because most of the time we stand to lose a bunch more than the $14 we've already committed if we continue.

Click to expand...

Nice summary, Oz.

Good stuff guys, I agree it's a fold. Actual hand I called and donk-folded a blank turn which I just hated.

I feel super exploitable when I fold as much as AK here, but I guess there's just nothing we can do about it. Just a perfect demonstration of how much of a pain in the ass a good aggressive player with position and deep stacks is for you.

At what point do we not fold when he raises? ie when he raises a TON?

ChuckTs said:

Good stuff guys, I agree it's a fold. Actual hand I called and donk-folded a blank turn which I just hated.

I feel super exploitable when I fold as much as AK here, but I guess there's just nothing we can do about it. Just a perfect demonstration of how much of a pain in the ass a good aggressive player with position and deep stacks is for you.

At what point do we not fold when he raises? ie when he raises a TON?

Click to expand...

the answer to this would be when you have the stone cold nutz

I meant at what frequency of his raise cbet do we just commit our hand here?

Overall he's like %30 which is already massive. Do we jam our AK no redraw if he raises %40? %45? %50?

Also, we're committing a hell of a lot more than the nuts on this hand...

You lose 14$ for folding.

If he has a draw and hits, you can get away with losing 35.50$. If he has a flush, you probably will get stacked if you keep going with this hand.

If he has nothing, you won't win more than 35.50$.

It depends on how often he would do this with draws, bluffs, etc. 30% is huge, but it's too easy for him to have a club draw, even a middle sized one. I think unless you've seen him raise a TON in this situation (monotone flop), you have to get away from this.

ChuckTs said:

Keep stack sizes in mind.

Click to expand...

Agreed. Hero is so deep here that stacking off with TP isn't even in mind, so the pot should be kept smaller preflop. The raise size should be the smallest amount possible to obtain one (and only one) caller. If two players call, the stack sizes become awkward in relation to the pot.

I think $4 is the right preflop raise size, because a lot of the time the BB will fold and the CO will call, and occasionally the opposite will happen (like it did).

So raise $4 pre and play AKo OOP vs 1 caller, flop comes down 8♣ K♣ 6♣, a little too coordinated. It plays out the same, Hero bets 2/3 the pot, but this time the pot is only $9.50, so the bet is only $6.50. Villain comes over the top and Hero is forced to fold; Hero is unwilling to stack off with TPTK this deep on this board, and taking any other actions would leave Hero very bluffable on subsequent streets.

By taking this line, Hero looses 5.56% of his stack. By taking the played line, Hero looses 7.41% of his stack, making this line more optimal.

But we're not planning the hand around hitting TPTK on a monotone board and facing a raise, and planning on losing the least amount possible. If that was the case we'd just say 'fold pf'.

We raise big preflop because we have a hand with massive equity, a really bad player limping in position on us, and we want to build the pot.

ChuckTs said:

But we're not planning the hand around hitting TPTK on a monotone board and facing a raise, and planning on losing the least amount possible. If that was the case we'd just say 'fold pf'.

We raise big preflop because we have a hand with massive equity, a really bad player limping in position on us, and we want to build the pot.

Click to expand...

Any thoughts on ch/calling 3 streets as long as no club falls? As played, I'm torn between folding or calling and CRAI on non-club turns, but leaning more towards folding.

ChuckTs said:

I meant at what frequency of his raise cbet do we just commit our hand here?

Overall he's like %30 which is already massive. Do we jam our AK no redraw if he raises %40? %45? %50?

Also, we're committing a hell of a lot more than the nuts on this hand...

Click to expand...

If he's got 30%+ raise cbet, it's going to be pretty likely that he is going to raise and bloat the pot since he is aggressive. I would want to make sure that was something I was ok with before cbetting. When he raises the flop It's unlikely your beating any made hands, so if you reraise he may only continue with hands that beat you, combo draws, and ace high flush draws, and fold out the rest of his range that is drawing slim or air. So I think bluffcatching would be better if your going to continue.

You can keep checking to that guy also if he calls you in position and take his favorite play away from him, by ch/calling, chraise bluffing, etc

ChuckTs said:

But we're not planning the hand around hitting TPTK on a monotone board and facing a raise, and planning on losing the least amount possible. If that was the case we'd just say 'fold pf'.

We raise big preflop because we have a hand with massive equity, a really bad player limping in position on us, and we want to build the pot.

Click to expand...

...I'm sorry, this does make more sense- since we're after the CO with only $95, and we want him to stack us with Ax when an Ace flops, right?

Don't have to be sorry, I'm just trying to clear it up for you

We shouldn't be planning our hand around stacking TPTK since so many other things can happen, ie flopping draws, flopping bare overcards, flopping the nuts, etc etc. Our plan preflop is to build the pot because we have a massive equity edge. We deal with postflop when we get there.

Having said that I didn't plan my postflop play well at all. If we're betting here it has to be with a clear plan for when we get check-raised or called, and seeing various turn cards.

Bet-folding seems so weak against this guy. I'm starting to like the check-call line more, but hate ch-calling in general.

I think folding is fine. This reminds me of a hand I discussed with you at some point, Chuck, where I got check/raised on a board much like this one by a villain much like this one with TPTK and decided to ship it.

The problem is our dirt-poor equity. When we're called, we're at best up against something like 11 outs, and at worst we're drawing virtually dead. When he folds, we've risked $130 to win $50. I could do the math and show the break-even percentages and how often he'd need to have the naked ace of clubs to make it worth it, but I think you get the idea.

If you're hell-bent on making a stand then I like donk/folding a blank turn, but I think folding is by far the superior line.