$100 NLHE 6-max: Top pair line check

ChuckTs

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$100 NL HE 6-max: Top pair line check

I only have today's stats on villain; he seems lag/tag and I don't have any solid numbers on his barreling. He cbets lots though.

My hand's not good enough to 3bet for value against him, hence my flat.

Thoughts on the overall line? Any alternatives?

party poker, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker

CO: $408.23 (408.2 bb)
BTN: $107.90 (107.9 bb)
SB: $115 (115 bb)
Hero (BB): $134.20 (134.2 bb)
MP: $101.10 (101.1 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with K Q
3 folds, SB raises to $4, Hero calls $3

Flop: ($8) 5 J K (2 players)
SB bets $7, Hero calls $7

Turn: ($22) T (2 players)
SB bets $16, Hero calls $16

River: ($54) 8 (2 players)
SB bets $25, Hero folds
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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Can we raise the turn as a bluff? The T fills a lot of draws, gives us a real dirty OESD. That & the river fold is the only thing questionable I see about the hand. If villain is solid & c-bets lots, I might be convinced to call river, since its such a great board to bluff.
 
S93

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Can we raise the turn as a bluff? The T fills a lot of draws, gives us a real dirty OESD. That & the river fold is the only thing questionable I see about the hand. If villain is solid & c-bets lots, I might be convinced to call river, since its such a great board to bluff.
min raise turn and check back non A,9 rivers?
 
JimmyBrizzy

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My hand's not good enough to 3bet for value against him, hence my flat.

Yeah, sorry if this is a stupid question, but can I get some deeper clarification on idea behind this?

I'm guessing we think he's only moving on with the hand with a range that beats us if we 3-bet him here?
 
ChuckTs

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yep, exactly. Don't know why I felt the need to say that; KQs is pretty much a flat against most players.
 
KardKlub

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Im still learning but It might have been better to 3 bet to 16 on the flop or nearly 20. Q kicker with top pair against any raise by the small blind when it's been folded around to him pre flop, i'd think i was ahead if i had little info on the villian unless he called me or even re-raised me. (showed any real strength apart from the what could be a C bet)

You never showed any strength by calling twice. pre flop, flop.

In fact it would have cost you less to re-raise the flop than it did to call the two bets.

Why call a large bet on the turn with no diamond? were you going to get aggressive on the river if no diamond or Ace fell?


K Q suited against the small blind in my mind is a strong hand. You have position.

Thinking on how he bet the turn, it was high enough to look like he was protecting his hand or bluffing with an ace high diamond draw. It would have been ballsy but a large raise here might have taken it down there and then.

Any views on what i wrote is much appreciated, as i said i am still learning and i play quite aggressive 6max.
 
JohnnyFronts

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Maybe this is also a stupid question, but why not raise the flop? Draw heavy board + the dynamic of a blindwar vs laggy villain?
 
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I would advocate mini raising the turn for a cheap showdown. His 2-barreling range is going to be wide, a hell of a lot wider than the range of hands he is willing to call a turn raise+potentially large river bet.

If he calls the mini raise and fires out on the river then you have to assume you're crushed by his range. It would be somewhat unreasonable to believe he is taking that line with anything less than TP2ndK.
 
slycbnew

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I never raise my good hands until I'm sure that all the draws have missed.

fishsticks, aren't you losing value? If the draws miss, you're rarely going to get paid off by worse hands, and draws are usually a dog to your good hands. And if the draws hit, don't you end up folding winners too often?

c9 and sindri, I like the turn line - if he shoves over a turn raise, are we calling?
 
S93

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No i snap fold if he shoves over our raise.
I think where almost allways drawing dead if villain whants to get it in there.
 
F Paulsson

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min raise turn and check back non A,9 rivers?

Yeah, I'm a fan of raising the turn, and this is one of the two ways I'd do it. The other way is to raise an amount that (just) commits us and then call a shove. If we minraise, we kinda have to fold to a shove.

I'd have to break down his range a little bit better to decide which of the two I think is better but I definitely want to raise the turn. The only situation in which I think calling the turn is good is if we feel we can call any river (including a diamond river) as well, or if he's so tight that he'd fold everything worse and just call with anything better.
 
JohnnyFronts

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Guys, im sorry if this is a naive question, and if it is please explain to me why, but why are we not raising the flop? Cause we think hes going to barrel the turn? Dont we get some more info with a flop raise?
 
F Paulsson

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His range is super-wide on the flop and while raising will get value out of some of these hands I think we're generally better off trying to play a smaller pot versus a wider range than play a big pot versus a narrow range, if that makes sense.

Raising the flop isn't bad, necessarily, especially against someone who doesn't like to fold - or even better, likes to 3-bet bluff flops - but in general, we're not going to get a ton of value out of the weakest part of his range when we're raising and since so much of his range is air here we're probably better off just letting him bet the turn as well.
 
Implied Odds3

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I never raise my good hands until I'm sure that all the draws have missed.


Wouldn't it make more sense to make the draws pay for chasing instead of letting them get what they want, which is to see a free card.

I agree with slycbnew, you should raise the turn. Other than that, the line is perfect.
 
JohnnyFronts

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His range is super-wide on the flop and while raising will get value out of some of these hands I think we're generally better off trying to play a smaller pot versus a wider range than play a big pot versus a narrow range, if that makes sense.

Raising the flop isn't bad, necessarily, especially against someone who doesn't like to fold - or even better, likes to 3-bet bluff flops - but in general, we're not going to get a ton of value out of the weakest part of his range when we're raising and since so much of his range is air here we're probably better off just letting him bet the turn as well.

Understood. I guess the part of me that hates calling takes over there. Then as played we should be raising the turn planning on calling a shove?
 
F Paulsson

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Understood. I guess the part of me that hates calling takes over there. Then as played we should be raising the turn planning on calling a shove?

We should usually raise the turn but not always call a shove. I think raising with the intention of calling a shove is good against some players - obviously the ones who tend to shove the turn with draws - although there are some players that I'd look to size my turn bet such that I could easily get away from it if it came to that.

Basic idea: Someone who check/raises turn a lot, make a big bet looking to get it. Versus someone who check/raises the turn very rarely and is straightforward, make a half-pot:ish bet to charge draws and weaker holdings and then find a fold when they jam.
 
JohnnyFronts

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Thank you for explaining FP. This would then be a situation where we have to determine whether or not we think our opponent is laggy enough to jam weaker on the turn to make our call good. Thanks again.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Shove river, imo. Then go brag about it on 2p2 if it works and get crazy action from the regs aftewards. :D
 
trewtrew

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raise flop as u have top pair second kicker but with flush and straight draws out there u need to raise big to either get him to fold his draw or at least make him pay. Also if u raise the flop, this gives u control of the pot so if the turn bricks u can bet again and he probably have to fold and if he does hit his draw hes probably going to check to the aggressor (you) and u can check behind the turn keeping the pot smaller.
 
F Paulsson

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raise flop as u have top pair second kicker but with flush and straight draws out there u need to raise big to either get him to fold his draw or at least make him pay. Also if u raise the flop, this gives u control of the pot so if the turn bricks u can bet again and he probably have to fold and if he does hit his draw hes probably going to check to the aggressor (you) and u can check behind the turn keeping the pot smaller.

How do you respond to him shoving the flop if you raise it?

Also, if you raise the flop to "charge him" does it really make sense to then check back the turn to give him a free card?

Also, if you check back the turn to keep the pot small, wouldn't it make more sense to keep it small by not raising to begin with and let him try to bet his trash one more time instead of getting him to continue only with strong hands and draws?
 
BelgoSuisse

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Wat? FP answers trutru's post and not my brilliant "shove river" proposal?

Seriously, though. If we shove, villain can only really call here with the nut flush. And he could still have a number of hands he's willing to bet/fold on this river. So while it's obviously high variance, shoving river is not 100% spew either.

Example:

full tilt poker $1/$2 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players
The Official DeucesCracked.com Hand History Converter

CO: $211.00
Hero (BTN): $295.40
SB: $201.00
BB: $201.75
UTG: $446.00
UTG+1: $110.00
UTG+2: $495.40
MP1: $220.85
MP2: $216.65

Pre Flop: ($3.00) Hero is BTN with 6 :spade: 5 :spade:
UTG raises to $7, 5 folds, Hero calls $7, 2 folds

Flop: ($17.00) 5 :heart: 7 :diamond: 9 :heart: (2 players)
UTG bets $14, Hero calls $14

Turn: ($45.00) 7 :heart: (2 players)
UTG bets $34, Hero raises to $68, UTG calls $34

River: ($181.00) 2 :heart: (2 players)
UTG bets $84, Hero raises to $206.40 all in, UTG requests TIME, UTG folds
 
F Paulsson

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I don't think shoving river is spewy necessarily. I have no idea what his third barrel says about his range is my problem; perhaps his river bet is completely polarized (in which case we should call sooner than shove) and perhaps it's all over the place (in which case shoving is good).
 
JOEBOB69

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FP why not 3 1/2x raise the flop i know his range is opened wide an you would be running out worse hands.But that is one heavy draw board i would be 90% sure i had the best an we know he is going to c bet atc.IMO the flat call gives q9 a chance or maybe a3 off that just got the flush draw on the turn a fired two barrels.I think the flop raise would have ended it small pot on a wet board an move on.3 bet pre would not have been a super bad play either imo.
 
valientone

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i would have to agree with joebob on that one.. i think a bet on the flop would have took it down
 
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