$100 NLHE 6-max: Rate my Bluff

John A

John A

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My opponent is a NIT. I think he was running 16/13ish. I put him pretty squarely on Kx, so would assume I could rep 56/A6/43 pretty easily. Maybe A2, not sure how often I'm raising that, and probably not A5, but... also I just took a beat from the HJ about 2-3 hands before this, so maybe not the best timing.

Hand Converted by Ace Poker Drills Poker Training Software

NL Holdem $1(BB)
SB ($136.5)
BB ($96.7)
HJ ($212.65)
CO ($182.7)
HERO ($100)

Dealt to Hero 9:diamond: 8:spade:

HJ Folds , CO Raises To $3 , HERO Calls $3 , SB Calls $2.5 , BB Calls $2

Flop ($10.5) K:heart: 2:diamond: 5:club:
SB Checks , BB Checks , CO Checks , HERO Bets $6 , SB Calls $6 , BB Folds , CO Folds

Turn ($22.5) K:heart: 2:diamond: 5:club: A:club:
SB Checks , HERO Checks

River ($22.5) K:heart: 2:diamond: 5:club: A:club: 6:diamond:
SB Bets $13 , HERO Raises To $37
 
H

Henreiman

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SB definitely has Aces or big hands in his range that he's trying to c/r with on the turn, you're pretty much repping Kx on the check back. Your river line only makes sense with 66 or 65, unless you're playing small ball on the turn with A6. But you should be 3b or folding A6 pre, and you do that a % of the time w/ 65 also. I think you're getting snapped here unless he has air, which is tough to put him on.
 
IPlay

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SB line of check calling flop, checking turn and leading out on river seems strong while your line makes no sense unless you rivered a straight. I would think the only way he is not calling is with air but that is hard to have on that dry board from a nit.

6/10 bluff :p
 
Arjonius

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I haven't played at nl100 in some time, so am not familiar with the current level of play. Plus although I've experimented playing hands like 98o here, this has never been fully in my style .

With these caveats, I can't say I really like the bluff. While the nit recognizes you're much looser than he is, unless he has shown otherwise, I'd tend to think that he's still inclined to lean toward his own comfort zone, meaning he won't credit you with being as loose as you actually are and/or won't fully adjust. So, I'd be less inclined toward bluffs that depend on those things.
 
John A

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SB definitely has Aces or big hands in his range that he's trying to c/r with on the turn, you're pretty much repping Kx on the check back. Your river line only makes sense with 66 or 65, unless you're playing small ball on the turn with A6. But you should be 3b or folding A6 pre, and you do that a % of the time w/ 65 also. I think you're getting snapped here unless he has air, which is tough to put him on.

Aces?

I think his range is pretty squarely Kx, 22/55 and probably a couple of mid pairs like 77-99. Not sure how often he block bets mid pairs on the river, but probably x% of the time. Lots more combos of Kx, and I'm pretty sure I can get a nit to fold KQ/KJ. Again I'm mostly repping 43/A6/66/56 (which is a little thin, but... he's a nit). :)

There's something else interesting about this hand, and kind of why I posted it. It doesn't have much to do with whether my bluff was successful or not, but just something I wanted to share.
 
duggs

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If he is a nit I just fold pre
 
duggs

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If probably opt to be turn and river big before I would check back and raise river tho, reps a wider value range and leverages the turn
 
NineLions

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Seems not everyone is reading the hand history very well with you, John. :)

Your bluff puts a lot of pressure on Kx, though if you've just taken a beat, he could read your aggression as frustration and feel that he has to call you down.

I'm a little uncertain what he's after value-wise with his river bet; your small/medium pocket pair? But your range for betting the flop IP could be anything including a lot of air since no one bet, and Kx beats a lot of air, so I like your raise more than his bet.
 
U

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That looks like a bluff to me.

You call on the button from a CO raise. How many A's are really in your calling range there? I hope not that many. Probably very few K's as well. So you are looking at a range of mid pairs to connected stuff, with a few A's and a few K's. I would bet that more A2-5 hands make up your A range than anything else. Just a guess.

So on the flop, you wiff with almost everything, small pairs are good so a bet would make sense, as would a little pair or maybe an A, again he should never believe you have a K here, and rarely an A.

Turn comes and you check the A. He checked as well. I think HE is much more likely to check an A here than you would be, if you hit. So I have trouble believing you have an A of any kind.

River comes 6. So you are trying to rep something like 56 or 66, maybe a monster on the flop like 55. Everything else you are raising with here is air.

I think your story falls short here, it looks more like you turned a flush draw and whiffed and decided to turn it into a bluff.

This guy is a nit, so I think the odds of this working are better against him than say a 24/22 or so. If it was me, I would call this because it looks too bluffy.

For reference to me calling here, look at my hand posted a couple below this where a similar situation came up with me on the other side.

Bluff rating against a decent TAG - 3/10
Bluff rating against a NIT - 6.7/10
 
John A

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Why would I turn a flush draw and not bet that turn? And when thinking through ranges, you can never ever say, someone will not do X in Y spot. Like as an example, I will never check two pair on the turn, which isn't true especially in this spot. It's especially true because he's a nit and I would have a better chance of extracting value on the river on a dry board then betting an ace. You want to build a case of likelihood, but I'd advise about getting too rigid in hand ranges. I somewhat fell victim to it here, and I'll say why later.

Hehe... ok, so clearly a lot of you would snap call with Kx. I'm finding it hard to believe based on experience, but....

He snap folded, but that's irrelevant.
 
U

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Why would I turn a flush draw and not bet that turn? And when thinking through ranges, you can never ever say, someone will not do X in Y spot. Like as an example, I will never check two pair on the turn, which isn't true especially in this spot. It's especially true because he's a nit and I would have a better chance of extracting value on the river on a dry board then betting an ace. You want to build a case of likelihood, but I'd advise about getting too rigid in hand ranges. I somewhat fell victim to it here, and I'll say why later.

Hehe... ok, so clearly a lot of you would snap call with Kx. I'm finding it hard to believe based on experience, but....

He snap folded, but that's irrelevant.

Excellent points. You're right probably flush bets the turn. And you can't really say always or never. but maybe rarely or often are better terms.

So lets think about ranges and what a person would likely do with each given card.

Pre: CO raises - his range is marginally wide and getting in the stealing range. Pretty much all A's, a good number of K's, a few Q's, all PP's, and a reasonable number of suited connectors. We can call it 27%, maybe - depending on the player. BTN calls. BTN range should be maybe 10% of all hands. So pp's, a few A's, very few K's, mostly made up of middling connectors. Most everything else should be raising or folding. SB is a nit, I don't know what his 3bet range is, but we can likely remove AQ+, TT+, and maybe KQs. I don't expect to see him calling there is 78s, or similar middling holdings. So, probably mid PP's, A9-AJ, K9-KQ, QT+, JT, maybe T9. I think I stretching his range.

So flop is K 2 5. This is a flop that misses the CO solidly. It misses a lot of SB as well, and should miss the BTN. However it does hit a bigger portion of the SB's range - though he checks. As does CO. BTN bets, this doesn't really mean anything but will likely fold out most players. SB calls, so he either (likely) has a K or a PP.

Turn is an A. SB checks again. This looks like a pretty good scare card, gives a flush draw and it kills the K high hands. BTN checks. This check does a couple of things. either the BTN has an A, and is checking to get value on the river or he is checking because he doesn't have an A. Begs the question would a good player bet the A if he has it. Maybe not. I was about to get meta and say something like - the SB is a nit so the BTN is more likely to bet an A for value since the nit is more likely to call, but the nit is not likely aware of that.

River is a 6. It completes no draws and should improve very few hands. SB bets. If BTN has a PP or an A he is not likely to raise this. BTN should get very few calls from worse hands with a raise in that position. So this means that either BTN is bluffing or has such a strong hand that he has to raise for value. What very strong hands would BTN have here that would either 1) not have been worthing trying to get a call on the turn with or 2)got there on the river. There are exactly 3 hands that fit this category. 56, 66, A6. All are in the realm of likelihood, however there is also a ton of air in there too. I really want to discount A6 here, because it seems like it should be able to get a bet on the turn, given SB's play. It also seems that SB may not give BTN credit for A6, given that there was no turn bet. This limits the big but likely hands to 56 and 66. So what does SB likely have? K9-KJ rates high up in the realm of possibility, as are pairs 77-TT - but those don't likely bet here. So K is the hand that bets here most of the time.

I think the reason this works is because the nit fears the A. The reality is that with a raise here, the K may as well be an A. an A should very rarely do this, since the only hands that call very often are better. Actually almost all pairs run at even equity to an A based on that bet. Given how polarizing that raise is, its not necessarily a mistake to call this raise by the SB.

On the other hand, this only needs to work around 50% of the time to be profitable. And this line probably works close to that against a lot of players. I think most people fold here.
I wouldn't.
 
Karozi615

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In my assessment I would say you played this one pretty badly

if you want to win pots by bluffing you have take an aggressive line with a minimum 3 streets of betting

Did you just decide to turn your hand into a bluff on the river? It sure looks like it - and that's a formula for failure. Sure it gets bad players to fold but I'd be inclined to call you with any pair based on your line

If you decided that you were just going to outclass the guy 3betting pre is probably your best option - your hand plays okay against a calling range and you have other plans if you miss

when you flat the flop bet and your opponent checks to you on the turn, this is the part where your supposed to bet again. I don't understand at all why you checked back - makes no sense.

The river is okay I guess - it will get a really bad player off of a K but I really don't see most competent 100NL players folding a K to that ridiculous raise

ideally you would have barreled turn and structured your bet sizing to bomb it on the river

so yeah, biggest mistake is not betting turn, thats grossly bad

all in all a poorly played hand but that's what these forums are for
 
U

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when you flat the flop bet and your opponent checks to you on the turn, this is the part where your supposed to bet again. I don't understand at all why you checked back - makes no sense.

He led the flop.
 
John A

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I don't mind talking hypothetical's all day, but the question was, will a NIT fold his Kx range (which is his mostly likely hand), to a raise on the river more than half the time? I wouldn't try and push a competent player off his hand in this spot with that line.

Also I'd likely check the turn if I spiked the Ace against thinking players at higher stakes so that I could raise the river and get called by Kx. It's not something I'd try and do at 100nl though when a pretty straight forward approach works pretty well and you can push people off better hands all the time with little risk.
 
U

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I don't mind talking hypothetical's all day, but the question was, will a NIT fold his Kx range (which is his mostly likely hand), to a raise on the river more than half the time? I wouldn't try and push a competent player off his hand in this spot with that line.

Also I'd likely check the turn if I spiked the Ace against thinking players at higher stakes so that I could raise the river and get called by Kx. It's not something I'd try and do at 100nl though when a pretty straight forward approach works pretty well and you can push people off better hands all the time with little risk.

1: Very true - I think that Nit is folding more than half the time in this spot. sorry for the derail. This bluff in this spot against this opponent is pretty good. I was just worried (knowing a lot of people value your advice and play) that some people might try and over apply this line against people they shouldn't.

2: I like to check back with an A on the turn as well. You get calls from a lot of stuff on the river, even at 100nl. That A is scary and there are enough scared nitty players that will fold too often. People really give up on the turn for some reason.
 
John A

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I agree with most of your points, and yes, I don't think anyone is advocating just trying to blindly bluff. So good point. Bluffing successfully has a LOT to do with your opponent's tendencies among other things.

But the reason I posted this hand was perceived range, because I hear/see this a lot. I'm pretty mindful of it, but it happens to me sometimes too. I didn't even consider a nit OOP, playing only 16% of hands could have 43, which is what he had. He shoved, I folded and he showed.

Ranges are not static, and while the likelihood of a particular hand may fall into a smaller percentage, you still need to consider it. Especially if you're against a more passive player and suddenly only 1 or 2 hands that seem unlikely are the only 2 that beat you, you have to give it more weight. I bring this up because we have a program in ace poker drills, and I hear all the time, well this person is only playing 20% of his hands in this spot, he can't have 96s. Mmmmm.... no. :)

Maybe a dumb point, but this hand reminded me of that from the other day.
 
T

thatgreekdude

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i don't like the bluff, he could easily be checking a set to you on the turn to induce a bet or as you're hoping he is scared of the ace, i don't like the check back on the turn because you're not really getting anymore information on the strength of his hand and you're showing weakness, him then leading out on the river signifies that he thinks his hand is good imo, so i think because you checked back the turn he is going to call you off with Kx anyway so i don't really see the point in bluffing.
 
John A

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Yes, of course he can be checking a set. Still doesn't change that his range is mostly Kx, and whether a NIT will fold that range more than 50% of the time to a river raise.
 
D

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Meh. Didn't like it much at first, but as I think about it I guess I like it more now than my initial impression. I skimmed the topic and saw some criticism. Gonna assume the letters fps appear in this thread once or twice.

I wouldn't consider this an ideal bluffing situation just 'cause you rep rather thin and I don't know that he's going to put you on much in the way of value combinations. Still, you're certainly correct that nits like folding and do quite a bit of it. Your line is almost never taken as a bluff at this limit, so there's that.

If he bets (and thus bet/folds) a bare king otr it's clearly a profitable bluff to make. He has more than enough Kx in his range pre river for that to be true. I just don't know that nit face is betting them otr as opposed to a check/call (or check/fold) approach. His bet could very well represent a more polarized range of hands that Kx doesn't quite make it into.

He snap folded, but that's irrelevant.
I didn't even consider a nit OOP, playing only 16% of hands could have 43, which is what he had. He shoved, I folded and he showed.

Heh.

Anyway if he did have 43 there it supports something I've been seeing a lot of myself in situations not unlike this one. Multiway pots make it hard for many players to resist seeing flops with all kinds of speculative type hands. With a raise and a flat call in front of him before his turn to act, apparently even nits like trying to hit miracle flops with weird junk in 3 or 4 handed pots... at least sometimes. Might've had some attachment still to his 50 cent small blind also lol.

Edit: Wrote my reply a little too quick (I'm on my way out the door). He always has a pair at least by the river when he check/calls that flop so polarized range isn't a good way to put it. nm that part. gtg
 
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T

thatgreekdude

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Yes, of course he can be checking a set. Still doesn't change that his range is mostly Kx, and whether a NIT will fold that range more than 50% of the time to a river raise.

If you put him on Kx then it makes no sense to check back the turn, fire a bet off on the turn and he'll likely either call a king or just let it go there and then, if he's holding onto a king he'll most likely check fold the river. I understand the play though, if i had the ace i would most likely check back the turn and hope he bluff/value bets the river and then the raise would get him off Kx, but i just don't think bluffing in this spot is optimal :)
 
Figaroo2

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The multi-way nature of this pot against late position raises would encourage me in with connectors/speculative holdings from the SB.
This is exactly the right circumstances to play these hands is it not? If the SB is in this will give irresistible odds to the BB as well.
I can easily see a semi-nit like 16/13 being encouraged in here. (10/8 nit maybe not)
Late position raises are often from less strong holdings and against 4 way action means less likelyhood of aggressive cbetting and more chances of seeing a few cheap streets to let the hand develop.
Personally I would occasionally play small card combos here to try and hit a wheel rather than mid card combos that might get dominated. So in this hand and knowing my own tendencies I would be giving the SB a very wide range.
As regards the question of Kx folding to the bluff 50% of the time here, well yes there is an ace out there, if I'm holding Kx facing a x3 raise on the river I'm nervous and folding often unless I have a very good read on the bluff.
 
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