$100 NLHE 6-max: Probably no FE

John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Both opponents were fish. Button was a pretty bad regular, and big blind was just fishy. I guess with probably no FE at all on the turn, I need to just call. I don't think big blind is capable of folding Qx, and it looks like he may have more than that.

poker stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
CO: $23 (23 bb)
BTN: $95.28 (95.3 bb)
Hero (SB): $179.55 (179.6 bb)
BB: $228.57 (228.6 bb)
MP: $114.90 (114.9 bb)

Preflop: Hero is SB with J
diamond4.gif
K
diamond4.gif

MP folds, CO calls $1, BTN raises to $4.50, Hero calls $4, BB calls $3.50, CO calls $3.50

Flop: ($18) Q
diamond4.gif
2
spade4.gif
T
diamond4.gif
(4 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $10, CO folds, BTN calls $10, Hero calls $10

Turn: ($48) 5
heart4.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $48, BTN calls $48, Hero calls $48

River: ($192) 7
heart4.gif
(3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $48, 2 folds

Now that my honeymoon is paid for, having fun with the slow grind back up to higher stakes! :)

Fyi... this was a hand earlier against BTN. Just so you can get some sense.

Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em Cash, 5 Players
BTN: $27.50 (27.5 bb)
SB: $98.04 (98 bb)
Hero (BB): $149.34 (149.3 bb)
MP: $97 (97 bb)
CO: $254 (254 bb)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K
spade4.gif
K
heart4.gif

MP raises to $3, 2 folds, SB calls $2.50, Hero raises to $14, MP folds, SB calls $11

Flop: ($31) 6
spade4.gif
9
diamond4.gif
J
club4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($31) 4
club4.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $15.50, Hero calls $15.50

River: ($62) 2
heart4.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $119.84 and is all-in, SB calls $68.54 and is all-in

Results: $199.08 pot ($2 rake)
Final Board: 6
spade4.gif
9
diamond4.gif
J
club4.gif
4
club4.gif
2
heart4.gif

BTN mucked 7
diamond4.gif
2
spade4.gif
and lostSB mucked Q
club4.gif
9
spade4.gif
and lost (-$98.04 net)
Hero showed K
spade4.gif
K
heart4.gif
and won $197.08 ($99.04 net)
MP mucked 5
heart4.gif
4
heart4.gif
and lost (-$3 net)
CO mucked 2
club4.gif
8
club4.gif
and lost
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Why not check-raise flop? You had an absurd amount of equity vs any range (17 outs to the nuts + 3 to top pair), of which you instantly lose half if the turn bricks. Personally on a 38BB pot with a monster draw I just shove. I'm just as happy if to get a call as I am to get two folds and with 20 outs (of which at least 17 are clean) I'm just ecstatic to get two calls.

EDIT: Wait... How the hell are you playing on pokerstars from the US?
 
Last edited:
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Why not check-raise flop? You had an absurd amount of equity vs any range (17 outs to the nuts + 3 to top pair), of which you instantly lose half if the turn bricks. Personally on a 38BB pot with a monster draw I just shove.

EDIT: Wait... How the hell are you playing on Pokerstars from the US?

Lot's of reasons why I don't CR the flop.

So you think shoving the turn versus two bad players, one or both of which you have probably less than 5% fold equity is the highest EV line? If I hit my straight I can stack at least one of these guys. Flush I will get value at the very least. I'm getting better than direct pot odds to call.

It's not PS.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
So you think shoving the turn versus two bad players, one or both of which you have probably less than 5% fold equity is the highest EV line?
No I would check-shove flop. The turn was a brick so betting that would be a semibluff and with no FE is just bad, but that flop was just absurdly good to be in multiway -- you're only really in trouble if any one of those guys has a set, which they usually won't. If they're bad then usually at least one will have a piece of the board and refuse to let go of it.
 
hobonc

hobonc

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
May 28, 2010
Total posts
854
Chips
0
Just curious.....I know the 2nd hand was posted for illustrative purposes but why did you check the flop and flat the turn? Would you not have wanted to pressure a possible OE draw, or worry that someone could hit a second pair? Not saying your play was bad as the results obviously show, just wanted your thought process.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
No I would check-shove flop. The turn was a brick so betting that would be a semibluff and with no FE is just bad, but that flop was just absurdly good to be in multiway -- you're only really in trouble if any one of those guys has a set, which they usually won't. If they're bad then usually at least one will have a piece of the board and refuse to let go of it.

Check/shove flop? :) You do realize you're 180 bbs deep. I think you mean CR like in your first post. Never CRing a flop in this spot honestly. You're still cool in my book though. ;)
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Just curious.....I know the 2nd hand was posted for illustrative purposes but why did you check the flop and flat the turn? Would you not have wanted to pressure a possible OE draw, or worry that someone could hit a second pair? Not saying your play was bad as the results obviously show, just wanted your thought process.

Mostly deception, but also he was goofy and aggressive and knew I could make up the value on later streets, while totally confusing him about my range. Pretty dry board, I have position, and I'll have a good grasp of where my opponent is by the river so I can just call or shove, etc... over shove in this case.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Check/shove flop? :) You do realize you're 180 bbs deep.
Ohhh, yeah didn't see that. :D

Never CRing a flop in this spot honestly.
But... but... why? You're at least 50% vs two people assuming no sets out there (and well over 3:1 otherwise); and a raise can't narrow Villain's range enough you're not still ahead. I don't understand why jamming as much money into that flop as possible isn't an excruciatingly good idea. :confused:

I know you're way better than I am and I'm probably wrong though, so... can you clarify?
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Ohhh, yeah didn't see that. :D


But... but... why? You're at least 50% vs two people assuming no sets out there (and well over 3:1 otherwise); and a raise can't narrow Villain's range enough you're not still ahead. I don't understand why jamming as much money into that flop as possible isn't an excruciatingly good idea. :confused:

I know you're way better than I am and I'm probably wrong though, so... can you clarify?

I'd prefer to keep them both in, and I definitely don't want to push out the guy who is deep. I don't really have much FE any ways, getting great odds against two bad players. It's not that I think CR is bad or anything, but I think I have potential to get paid by both since the worst of the two players is in the sandwiched position post flop.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Ok, that makes sense. I guess it's just I'm afraid of blank turns because they cut my equity in half, but then again you're not getting it in otf with two players in deep so just floating it is probably better yeah.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
I take the same line in the KJs hand, what is the question? Pretty sure we don't have enough FE on the turn to do anything else.
 
Aleksei

Aleksei

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 20, 2013
Total posts
1,527
Chips
0
Dude, that's John A. It's not a question, it's a demonstration. Respect the master.

;)
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
I take the same line in the KJs hand, what is the question? Pretty sure we don't have enough FE on the turn to do anything else.

I wanted to see if anyone thought donk, 3-bet the flop was a plausible line or leading the turn. Think there might be some FE if I lead flop, BB calls, and btn raises. Problem is I'm still not sure how much FE I have against btn, but he can show up with a lot of worse draws, more often than BB will.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Dude, that's John A. It's not a question, it's a demonstration. Respect the master.

;)

You're lucky I allowed you to read this thread... lol.

I have tons of holes in my game. I've played so much online though, it's hard not to think most situations are mundane or no-brainers. I'm definitely no master though.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
are we assuming a Js good too given villain?
 
K

kanselau

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 9, 2011
Total posts
439
Chips
0
hey John
Nice post man , it illustrates a lot of great concepts , such as :


We should play the same hand in different ways depending on the opponents/situation we are facing . for example you told us that both villains are fishy so im thinking this is the reason you just flat in the SB pre flop, as we have little FE we do not want to build the pot OOP. With stronger opponents im thinking it would probably be better to either 3 bet or fold ?

Also you explained that its not optimum to C/R the flop because we would rather keep both fish in the hand as the implied odds were better. If opponents were stronger however would you consider playing the hand differently. for example betting the flop or C/R , as now we have FE and taking initiative might give us better options to win the hand if we miss or might buy us a free turn card.

IMO donking flop or C/R would be better against stronger opponents (correct me if im wrong ) as we have A: preety good draw and we want to get some $ in the pot , B: if checked the turn could complete our draw , but freeze the action and a good opponent will not pay us off, or we could miss and our equity is slashed in half . C: we have fold equity so even if both opponents fold , we scoop a decent pot with nothing.

The 2 hand posted also illustrates how sacrificing a little equity on one street can gain a lot of equity on latter streets , the way you played the hand confused villain enough to stack off with middle pair. Also Shows how deception is a powerfull concept.
The book says charge the draws but im shore you would not have been able to stack villain if you bet flop/turn so deception worked nicely here. Not shore what you meant by saying the board was dry , by the turn the was both straight/flush draw . If river completed anything here are you check/call or lead/fold?
 
Last edited:
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
I lead the flop.
Against multiple fish I want the initiative to maximise my payoff when I hit, and have >0 fold equity.
Add to this the button is not very likely to c-bet with air here and when he does a check-raise is out of the question with two deep fish to act behind us so the money made from air c-betting we miss out on my leading is negligible.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
Who are you on Stars John?
Your likely in my games, although I've been out of the game for almost a month to focus on my App so we may not have played if you moved to Stars recently.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
leadings kinda meh, we have no FE and if he never ever folds anything then making the pot bigger without a made hand seems pointless.. I mean we have ridic equity vs everything and probably dominate/beat a noticeable bit of his range but this guy never folds.

so make a hand, bomb it and get paid seems like the easiest way to make money ever. onl justification you have is you have a big pot by the time you make your hand.. but we have to x/f when we brick so why make the pot now? we can make it later and still get paid.

also John said he;s not on stars.
 
Deco

Deco

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
May 7, 2009
Total posts
2,544
Chips
0
What does check calling achieve leading does not?
We have more fold equity betting than we have check calling.

Regardless of our actual hand strength we likely have the most equity at the table and have insane implied odds. Seeing this hand check back would be tragic.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
Who are you on Stars John?
Your likely in my games, although I've been out of the game for almost a month to focus on my app so we may not have played if you moved to Stars recently.

converter is making it seem like stars, it's a US site though.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
I lead the flop.
Against multiple fish I want the initiative to maximise my payoff when I hit, and have >0 fold equity.
Add to this the button is not very likely to c-bet with air here and when he does a check-raise is out of the question with two deep fish to act behind us so the money made from air c-betting we miss out on my leading is negligible.

Yeah, post analysis I was thinking leading the flop would have been the higher EV line. Kind of kicked myself on this hand a bit. At the time I was thinking how aggro the button was and wanted to do my best to keep the biggie on my left in, but I still like leading. My bad play ended up saving me money because there's no way biggie was folding based on his hand. :)

Best lesson in poker: If you're going to make a bad play or take a sub-optimal line, make sure to stay results oriented and focus on where you saved money because your opponent wasn't calling or folding.
 
OMGITSOVER9K

OMGITSOVER9K

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 29, 2011
Total posts
2,994
Chips
0
He says we have NO FE.

check calling > betting because we have no FE and leading allows us to be raised.
 
Top