$100 NLHE 6-max: JJ tough decision vs 4bet

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touche

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$100 NL HE 6-max: JJ tough decision vs 4bet

I was playing at 100 NL ran into a very difficult hand with out any reads/stats/info on villain (just sit in)
UTG+1 it is a loose pasive player and i know he limps from many time, but fold quikly if somebody 3bet.

No Limit Hold'em - €0.50/€1.00 23:35:49 - 2009/09/16

Seat 1: Alxorf19 (€298.00)
Seat 2: Belfoxxo2 (€65.38)
Seat 3: Ipacbaprad (€152.50)
Seat 4: DafoCel (€100.00)
Seat 5: xAngelx (€165.50)
Seat 6: touché (€189.20)

Belfoxxo2 posts the small blind of €0.50
Ipacbaprad posts the big blind of €1.00
Alxorf19 is the button
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to touché J♦J♣
DafoCel raises €3.50
xAngelx calls €3.50
Touché raises €11.00
Alxorf19 folds
Belfoxxo2 folds
Ipacbaprad folds
DafoCel raises €25.00
Touché calls €14.00 :confused:

*** FLOP *** K♠Q♣3♥
DafoCel checks
Touché checks
*** TURN *** K♠Q♣3♥ 9♣
DafoCel bets €36.00
Touche folds


Is a bad line to 3bet here ?
If i just flat call, what options i have on flop? raise/fold?

I decide to 3bet here to isolate the villain, because if i just flat call, i will have no idea where i stand after the flop.
Villain 4 bet. Should I have folded at that point?
It is a bad ideea to call here?


PS: Sorry about my english.
 
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Zybomb

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Standard 3 Bet. As far as the 4 Bet, largely due to the bet sizing, I put him on AA. With AK (which would also 4 bet) he's likely to make a larger raise tot ry and take the pot down now, not encourage action as this size 4 bet does. It could also be a weak attempt at QQ finding out where he is if player is bad.

Once this flop comes fold. All we beat is pure air.
 
shootwillus

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After the flop...what hands would 4 bet you that are beating you?
AA, KK, QQ, AK, AQ, and pocket 9's.

What hands are you ahead of that MAY 4bet preflop?
Maybe pocket 10's and the other JJ. (this is a big maybe)...oh, and total air

Other than this guy having total air the least of your problems is AQ.


There is no way you can stay in this hand, it just seems like utter suicide.
 
Double-A

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Is a bad line to 3bet here ?
If i just flat call, what options i have on flop? raise/fold?

I decide to 3bet here to isolate the villain, because if i just flat call, i will have no idea where i stand after the flop.
Villain 4 bet. Should I have folded at that point?
It is a bad ideea to call here?


PS: Sorry about my english.

1) I don't like to 3bet w/ JJ. In a raised pot, w/ no reads, and stacks being what they are I'd say call. You've got a chance to flop a set, in a multi-way pot, against an opponent who has shown strength from early position. Take it. You're going to make lots of money when villain over plays his big pairs or TPTK against your three jacks.

2) The flop will dictate your options. Flop a set? Bet/raise. If overcards come you're probably going to wind up folding to bets and raises. Flopping an over pair gets more complicated.

3) Don't 3bet JUST to isolate. Your bets and raises should be geared towards increasing the size of pots you are likely to win, getting better hands to fold and worse hands to call. You'll have a great idea where you stand on the flop if you catch your jack or if there are over cards. You don't need to raise for "information".

4) With no reads, I say fold to the four bet. I don't think you're getting odds to mine for your set and have to give your opponent credit for QQ+ (or AK).

5) Your english is fine.
 
slycbnew

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The 3bet is standard for 6max. You can't call the 4bet, though, you either need to fold or 5bet. The only way you can 5bet is by having a read that villain 4bets light (i.e., he'll 4bet a hand worse than JJ,AK) - without a read, fold to the 4bet.
 
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1) I don't like to 3bet w/ JJ. In a raised pot, w/ no reads, and stacks being what they are I'd say call.

This is very bad advice. Its 6 max and we're going to be 3 betting a ton with a variety of hands. If we're not including JJ in this huge range then what's the point? Or if we're only reraising QQ KK AA then again what's the point (we turn our hand over and lose big pots with it or win small ones). 6 max is about aggression. People are opening light and thus others are 3 betting light, so hands like JJ go waaaaaay up in value. Flatting in 6 max should be used sparingly.

you can't call the 4bet, though, you either need to fold or 5bet.

Why? It costs us $14 more into a $41, just shy of 3:1. Yea we're a 4:1 dog to AA-QQ, but if you consider implied odds, we have effective stacks of $75 left going to the flop. We should get that whole $75 if we flop a set by CRAI since villains bet will be roughly half his stack and will not fold an overpair for a min raise (particularly at low limits and nor should he). If this happens 1 out of every 8 times (roughly our chances of flopping a set) that means we lose the extra $14 seven times for a total of -$98, and we win $75+$41 (the pot before our $14 call)= $116 the eighth time for a net EV of +$18 making it +EV

I guess you can argue that its closer to EV nuetral if you factor in the random times we flop set over set and lose an extra $75, though that is extremely infrequent and the times villain has AK and we only get $36ish out of the $75 he has left, but certainly calling can't be put into the "you can't do that" category.
 
slycbnew

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Why? It costs us $14 more into a $41, just shy of 3:1. Yea we're a 4:1 dog to AA-QQ, but if you consider implied odds, we have effective stacks of $75 left going to the flop. We should get that whole $75 if we flop a set by CRAI since villains bet will be roughly half his stack and will not fold an overpair for a min raise (particularly at low limits and nor should he).

In this case, Villain does offer tempting odds to call by only 4betting to $25, but imo it's a sucker bet - once someone 4bets, you really should only be either 5betting or folding. Passives usually don't 4bet light, so his range is almost certainly at widest QQ+, AK, and I agree that this small 4bet indicates the stronger part of this range.

Set mining 4bet pots is, in the long run, not profitable. Agree that if we hit, chances are that we'll get villain's whole stack when he's holding KK+ (QQ may fold thinking we've got KK+), but it's not happening often enough to justify as a regular play (otherwise we might take this line w 88+), and if he's playing AK (I doubt it in this case, AK usually 4bets bigger) he may not put anymore in the pot.

And if we plan on taking the flop and playing back at Villain w an overpair, we're going to end up paying off QQ+, so there's a reverse implied odds problem there.
 
Double-A

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This is very bad advice. Its 6 max and we're going to be 3 betting a ton with a variety of hands. If we're not including JJ in this huge range then what's the point? Or if we're only reraising QQ KK AA then again what's the point (we turn our hand over and lose big pots with it or win small ones). 6 max is about aggression. People are opening light and thus others are 3 betting light, so hands like JJ go waaaaaay up in value. Flatting in 6 max should be used sparingly.

I should put a disclaimer on my posts that nearly all of my experience comes from full ring. It sounds like I could learn something about 6max here...

Why is 3betting an unknown UTG raiser, and one caller, w/ JJ standard? Doesn't that fold out most of UTG's range that we are ahead of? It seems to me that's just hoping for a call from TT-77. Aren't those the hands, along with the other players range, that I want to see a flop against? I'm missing the point of the aggression.

In this situation, I'd rather three bet with 65 than JJ.
 
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Why is 3betting an unknown UTG raiser, and one caller, w/ JJ standard? Doesn't that fold out most of UTG's range that we are ahead of? It seems to me that's just hoping for a call from TT-77. Aren't those the hands, along with the other players range, that I want to see a flop against? I'm missing the point of the aggression.

In this situation, I'd rather three bet with 65 than JJ.

We can get action from Small Pairs and we can fold out KQ which is racing or random Ax Kx Qx hands which have 1 over but that's not really the point. We're putting more $$ in with the 4th strongest starting hand preflop. And we ARE 3 betting 65s 97s ATo and tons of other random hands in spots like these frequently. Which makes our JJ even stronger. For Meta purposes if we're flatting JJ it makes our other 3 bets look weak. And for this particular hand if opponent knows that we'll get action with tons of hands we beat and or crush. If we're not 3 betting "cute" hands or TT JJ etc and are only 3 betting AA KK QQ it makes our 3 bets look too strong so we not only lose value out of these hands but we also will almost always be behind if opponent continues.

In 6 max most pots will be contested heads up so in general you don't wanna flat raises too often, simply bc you'll miss more flops than you'll hit. In additional you'll be utilizing squeeze plays quite often when theres been a raise and a call so JJ is certainly a candidate as well to squeeze if 76 is going to be in that range.
 
S93

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I agree that the 3bet is standard but just to note i like flatting here too some times, especialy if we have a villain with high 3bet/squeze behind us so we can backraise them.
 
Double-A

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We can get action from Small Pairs and we can fold out KQ which is racing or random Ax Kx Qx hands which have 1 over but that's not really the point. We're putting more $$ in with the 4th strongest starting hand preflop. And we ARE 3 betting 65s 97s ATo and tons of other random hands in spots like these frequently. Which makes our JJ even stronger. For Meta purposes if we're flatting JJ it makes our other 3 bets look weak. And for this particular hand if opponent knows that we'll get action with tons of hands we beat and or crush. If we're not 3 betting "cute" hands or TT JJ etc and are only 3 betting AA KK QQ it makes our 3 bets look too strong so we not only lose value out of these hands but we also will almost always be behind if opponent continues.

Thanks! I understood the reasoning behind our range for 3betting. I just looked at it like, I'm folding to a 4bet so don't give him the opportunity. Instead, see a cheap flop multi-way and hope for a set. I see your point though...

I missed the squeeze play...
 
slycbnew

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We can get action from Small Pairs and we can fold out KQ which is racing or random Ax Kx Qx hands which have 1 over but that's not really the point. We're putting more $$ in with the 4th strongest starting hand preflop. And we ARE 3 betting 65s 97s ATo and tons of other random hands in spots like these frequently. Which makes our JJ even stronger. For Meta purposes if we're flatting JJ it makes our other 3 bets look weak. And for this particular hand if opponent knows that we'll get action with tons of hands we beat and or crush. If we're not 3 betting "cute" hands or TT JJ etc and are only 3 betting AA KK QQ it makes our 3 bets look too strong so we not only lose value out of these hands but we also will almost always be behind if opponent continues.

In 6 max most pots will be contested heads up so in general you don't wanna flat raises too often, simply bc you'll miss more flops than you'll hit. In additional you'll be utilizing squeeze plays quite often when theres been a raise and a call so JJ is certainly a candidate as well to squeeze if 76 is going to be in that range.

vn explanation, as is sindri's, getting squeezed when you're holding JJ is very nice.

Expanding a little bit (someone else just walked me through this a couple of weeks ago) - when you start playing a 3bet/4bet dynamic w a broader range, you're getting involved in dead money situations, where the pot is big enough to justify "stealing" the pot w less than premium hands.

This is villain dependent - but if we open say 99 in CO and get 3bet by BTN, and BTN 3bets 9%+ from button (meaning his range is at least 88+, ATs+, KTs+, QJs+, AJo+, KQo+ - this is not unusual for an aggressive 100nl reg), a 4bet is a very good idea - we're a little less than a coinflip against this range. If he folds, we just got a nice small/medium sized pot. If he calls, we play postflop. If he shoves, we can drop at least half of his range, dropping our equity to say 33% - but the pot odds created by the dead money in the pot more than justify calling w the worst of it, so we should call.

However, if over a large sample BTN 3bets 2% from button, we snap fold our 99, we're dominated and creating dead money does nothing for us (and we have zero fold equity).

In this hand, a loose passive utg that 4bets forces us to setmine or fold, the JJ are dominated by his range (and again we have zero fold equity).
 
Deco

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The 3bet is standard for 6max. You can't call the 4bet, though, you either need to fold or 5bet. The only way you can 5bet is by having a read that villain 4bets light (i.e., he'll 4bet a hand worse than JJ,AK) - without a read, fold to the 4bet.

+1

We don't have a read that he's 4betting light, hence we fold.
 
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It costs us $14 more into a $41, just shy of 3:1. Yea we're a 4:1 dog to AA-QQ, but if you consider implied odds, we have effective stacks of $75 left going to the flop. We should get that whole $75 if we flop a set by CRAI since villains bet will be roughly half his stack and will not fold an overpair for a min raise (particularly at low limits and nor should he). If this happens 1 out of every 8 times (roughly our chances of flopping a set) that means we lose the extra $14 seven times for a total of -$98, and we win $75+$41 (the pot before our $14 call)= $116 the eighth time for a net EV of +$18 making it +EV

I make this mistake, to bellive that call to 4bet it +EV , but it's rong.
Call here is - EV , because we not have enough implied odds to call for set mining.

Ex:
Suppose we hit set on flop Jc 7h 3h , and villain have QQ+
Pokerstove say that we have only 89.89% chance to win this hand, and villain will win in 10.10% of time. Here we have one big problem. When villain win, i will lose 75E more!!

EV = 12% * ( 116E * 90% -75E* 10%) - 88% * 14E = -1,3E
12% = chance for set a flop
90% = precent for win the pot whit set on flop
116E = what we win if hit set
75E = extra money what we lose when villain make set on turn or river
10% = chance for villain to win hand if we make set on flop

88% = precent to villain to win hand (we not make set on flop and fold )
14$ = preflop call to 4bet;

I'm not clear what it's better line vs unknow UTG raise:
a. 3bet is standard
b. flat call (play JJ like a small pair)
 
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slycbnew

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I'm not clear what it's better line vs unknow UTG raise:
a. 3bet is standard
b. flat call (play JJ like a small pair)

Seriously, the 3bet is standard, unless you're looking to get squeezed. Once in a while you'll also want to flat for deception, or if you're certain Villain is awful postflop and will fold to your 3bet 100% of the time (I prefer being btn if this is the consideration), but against an unknown this is a waste of time.

You want him to make a mistake and call your 3bet oop w 22-TT, AT+, JT+, etc., which many 100nl players will do. They're pretty much forced to play fit or fold, which is hugely profitable for us.
 
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