$100 NLHE 6-max: Deep ante: Playing nut draws OOP deep

not really asking how to play the hand vs particular villain, but fwiw he frequents both the 50 and 100NL deep tables. preflop hes a complete psychopath. obv a winning reg, though im yet to see it. 251 hands, 34/28

more interested in what anyone who is familiar with deepstacked play has to say about playing draws in general

poker stars $0.50/$1 No Limit Hold'em $0.20 Ante - 5 players - View hand 1954974
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $281.20
CO: $196.49
BTN: $378.00
SB: $160.91
Hero (BB): $238.02

Pre Flop: ($2.50) Hero is BB with J :club: K :diamond:
UTG raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero calls $2

Flop: ($7.50) 2 :heart: T :heart: Q :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $5, Hero calls $5

Turn: ($17.50) A :club: (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($17.50) 3 :diamond: (2 players)
Hero bets $13, UTG raises to $38, Hero raises to $92, UTG folds

imo preflop call its pretty standard, both this guy and everyone else open at least 20% from all positions (he was 30% UTG)

arguments for check/calling vs donking? i personally hate checkraising draws deep but if anyone wants to tell me why its a good idea go ahead.

dont really like donking out with the nuts on the turn, esp since this guys range is so wide and the A is an obvious barrel card for him, but if anyone begs to differ im all ears

pretty sure super LAG villain with a deep stack IP is checking back the turn because his hand has SD value and hes pot controlling, so i put out a pretty chunky bet. his raise surprises me. not sure if its a bluff or value, but w/e. dont think i could ever get more money in by 3betting here since i dont think top 2 or sets are ever really calling a river 3b, esp when i played the hand so transparantly on earlier streets

for the record, the way i played this hand (up until i 3b the river) is how id play any other draw or Qx/Tx (although obv my riverdonk would be smaller with them)

I probably wouldn't check/raise the flop a ton when we're so deep, although you could make an argument that we have way more fold equity this deep, so I don't think it's "bad" exactly.

I like check/call on the turn more than donking out, cause he prob never raises us except maybe sets, and frankly I'm not sure what we rep with a lead there. I'm even kind of wondering if you could get away with a check/raise on the turn, but idk how often there is bluff check-raising turns at this limit. Obv it tends to look strong, but if you do it as a bluff sometimes too then I kind of like it.

Like you said, when he checks it the turn looks super showdown-valuey. KQ is sticking out to me - doubt he ever has an ace and doubt he's wiffed completely, cause he'd barrel the ace if he had nothing.

Kind of confused on the river, tbh. You bet pretty darn big, which prob looks like a stab at the pot since he showed weakness on the turn and big bets look scarier. When he raises you I'm uber-confused because it looks like he's calling BS and doesn't believe you have a value hand. I don't think there's anything he checks for SDV on the turn where he can raise for value on the river, because it doesn't improve his range in the slightest.

So he could have had something he thought was the nuts on the turn but didn't want to bet - pretty unlikely cause it's a draw-heavy board. More likely he is giving up on the turn or thinks he has SDV, but when you bet he thinks you have the best of it and turns his SDV-hand into a bluff (to make you fold an ace?). When you 3bet it's almost never not the nuts so he folds his KQ or whatever.

Kinda went in circles a bit there, sorry. Trying to "think out loud" a bit. I also prob botched a couple points there

CiB river

+1 to click it back river

baudib1 said:

CiB river

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Check the river???? smh.

click it back scourge

woops - got it now, haha.

what about a shove to induce spazz-calls??

we are never ever shoving 200bb into a 30bb pot as a bluff so he would fold the 2nd nuts there

What's up with calling pre? Your implied odds aren't that great since his range is going to be wide even UTG and when we do hit our dream board we're going to have a hard time extracting max value OOP. 3bet pre imo.

duggs said:

we are never ever shoving 200bb into a 30bb pot as a bluff so he would fold the 2nd nuts there

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facetiousness-fail

Yah don't shove. I fail at joking.

WVHillbilly said:

What's up with calling pre? Your implied odds aren't that great since his range is going to be wide even UTG and when we do hit our dream board we're going to have a hard time extracting max value OOP. 3bet pre imo.

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I would have been inclined to 3bet pre, but since JC didn't even mention it I assumed I was wrong lol.

Scourrge said:

I would have been inclined to 3bet pre, but since JC didn't even mention it I assumed I was wrong lol.

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JC is very good postflop, no doubt about it, but imo he very often over estimates the value of a lot of the hands he plays OOP without initiative. I think this is one of those hands.

i assumed we didnt 3bet because this JC said this guy was nuts preflop, which i took to mean has a really high 4b frequency and we arent going to profitably 3b/5b v him and 3b/call is bad and 3b/f is weak given reads?
Also given how deep we are he is unlikely pre to our 3bet.

3betting as a bluff here kind of seems like it wont work that often this deep.

I could be completely wrong tho

I just fold pre. 30% Open or not KJo is not a nice hand to play out of position, holds no implied odds and quite a bit of reverse implied odds. Factor in that we're deep and all three of these problems are made worse.

Generally when playing draws deep I go absolutely ape shit if my draw is the nut draw (or villain is unlikely to hold anything that beats our hand once made). We've greater implied odds than normal and more fold equity, deep pots are where draws are at their strongest.

However we don't want to do this with vulnerable draws, I'd be happy to checkraise this flop merely as we have 6nut outs. We're not going to get stacked too often when ace or 9 of hearts hits and villain raises us. Non nut flush draws and flush/straight draws on paired boards are the sort of thing we need to be cautious with.

Flatting is fine as well considering being 3bet would be nasty and may result in us needing to fold if it's big enough.

Scourrge said:

I probably wouldn't check/raise the flop a ton when we're so deep, although you could make an argument that we have way more fold equity this deep, so I don't think it's "bad" exactly.

I like check/call on the turn more than donking out, cause he prob never raises us except maybe sets, and frankly I'm not sure what we rep with a lead there. I'm even kind of wondering if you could get away with a check/raise on the turn, but idk how often there is bluff check-raising turns at this limit. Obv it tends to look strong, but if you do it as a bluff sometimes too then I kind of like it.

Like you said, when he checks it the turn looks super showdown-valuey. KQ is sticking out to me - doubt he ever has an ace and doubt he's wiffed completely, cause he'd barrel the ace if he had nothing.

Kind of confused on the river, tbh. You bet pretty darn big, which prob looks like a stab at the pot since he showed weakness on the turn and big bets look scarier. When he raises you I'm uber-confused because it looks like he's calling BS and doesn't believe you have a value hand. I don't think there's anything he checks for SDV on the turn where he can raise for value on the river, because it doesn't improve his range in the slightest.

So he could have had something he thought was the nuts on the turn but didn't want to bet - pretty unlikely cause it's a draw-heavy board. More likely he is giving up on the turn or thinks he has SDV, but when you bet he thinks you have the best of it and turns his SDV-hand into a bluff (to make you fold an ace?). When you 3bet it's almost never not the nuts so he folds his KQ or whatever.

Kinda went in circles a bit there, sorry. Trying to "think out loud" a bit. I also prob botched a couple points there

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i thought it was KQ too, but yeah i really dont get why he turns it into a bluff OTR. im all for turning SD val hands into bluffs when its more profitable, but i just dont think it would be in this spot? i guess ive been insanely passive throughout the hand and stab out at a ton of rivers so he prob does think he has a fair bit of FE but i dont know.

i was thinking it could be a non nut FD, where hes checked back the turn bc he thinks that my range is too strong on that board and he doesnt have much FE by betting, but thats pretty lol considering how wide my range is pre, and my flop floating range is even OOP.

good analysis though. i too was super confused by the river pop.

duggs said:

i assumed we didnt 3bet because this JC said this guy was nuts preflop, which i took to mean has a really high 4b frequency and we arent going to profitably 3b/5b v him and 3b/call is bad and 3b/f is weak given reads?
Also given how deep we are he is unlikely pre to our 3bet.

3betting as a bluff here kind of seems like it wont work that often this deep.

I could be completely wrong tho

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its pretty standard in these games to only F3b like 20%. obv stacks make highcards and big pairs lose value and scs and PPs go up. but i actually can 3b this for value because believe it or not he will call much worse kings and jacks. it also means that people manoevre more postflop, and calling down 3 barrels in a non 3b pot with TP meh kick is pretty standard and profitable aswell since people abuse their large stacks to put you in sick spots more. but in this case, you pretty much nailed the problem. hes 4bs a ton, and i cant call that nor 5b, but folding to the 4b would still be bad. add that if he just flats the 3b, hes floating me OTF 90% of the time, calling any pair any draw. he can then still profitably call any draw OTT if i x2 barrel, and generally will call a midpair again here. so i guess i dont 3b to make my life easier postflop. not sure whether this is even correct or not either, but ive cut down my 3b range to like 6% in these games, where i 3b really polarised w the nuts and occassionally suited air. the benefit of this is just that it makes me a lot tougher to play against postflop so i can make moves a ton easier on most boards (remember im playing something like 36/24 in these games)

i bet the river here bc villain has to call me with any kind of SD val hand. ive been check/raising rivs AI a lot bc it works well with the aggro in these games (x3 barrels w TPNK etc etc), but expected villain to check this behind on the river and not go for thin value- was that a mistake? should i have anticipated a river barrel?

WVHillbilly said:

JC is very good postflop, no doubt about it, but imo he very often over estimates the value of a lot of the hands he plays OOP without initiative. I think this is one of those hands.

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This probably holds a lot more truth than I'd admit

Deco said:

I just fold pre. 30% Open or not KJo is not a nice hand to play out of position, holds no implied odds and quite a bit of reverse implied odds. Factor in that we're deep and all three of these problems are made worse.
You don't think folding this pre is way too nitty? I gt the whole reverse implides as well as the fact the being OOP is a much bigger issue when deep, but I don think I could ever fold this. Obv I'm pot controlling the shit out of a bare king, but I think i can almost always call 2 streets, even 3 on some super drawy boards that brick if i pair the jack

Generally when playing draws deep I go absolutely ape shit if my draw is the nut draw (or villain is unlikely to hold anything that beats our hand once made). We've greater implied odds than normal and more fold equity, deep pots are where draws are at their strongest.

However we don't want to do this with vulnerable draws, I'd be happy to checkraise this flop merely as we have 6nut outs. We're not going to get stacked too often when ace or 9 of hearts hits and villain raises us. Non nut flush draws and flush/straight draws on paired boards are the sort of thing we need to be cautious with.

Flatting is fine as well considering being 3bet would be nasty and may result in us needing to fold if it's big enough.

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Ye I hate c/r on the flop because like you said, pretty much no matter the size of his 3b I hate my life and obv can't 4b stack flops profitably. I think I'd prefer donk/3b/fold more than c/r fold

Deco has a good point. KJo plays like shit oop, if he is opening 30% im getting close to wanting to call though. 3betting these kind of hands deep and oop seems really bad when people arent folding a lot to 3bets. Seriously nothing wrong with folding if the guy is a good reg and you are gonna struggle getting to showdown with what will probably be a face up range of bluff catchers. Only thing going for you is that Kx boards should get tripled a lot by competent regulars for obvious reasons, but that might not even matter cause your range is capped and his isnt.

acky100 said:

Deco has a good point. KJo plays like shit oop, if he is opening 30% im getting close to wanting to call though. 3betting these kind of hands deep and oop seems really bad when people arent folding a lot to 3bets. Seriously nothing wrong with folding if the guy is a good reg and you are gonna struggle getting to showdown with what will probably be a face up range of bluff catchers. Only thing going for you is that Kx boards should get tripled a lot by competent regulars for obvious reasons, but that might not even matter cause your range is capped and his isnt.

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do you ever flat AA preflop in similar spots (e.g. 200+ BBs deep, BB vs. 30% BTN open)? let's say the guy doesn't 4b a ton (if guy 4bets a ton deep then you obviously never flat AA)

Could you explain what you mean when you say that my range is capped and his isn't? Or does this just mean you exclude hands I'd obv 3b, etc?

And yes, assuming a lag player opening wide 100bbs deep, I will occasionally flat AA/KK

Pre's fine, but I probably ch/r flop. As played please don't cib. Think about his range for raising as a bluff and for value. I probably make it closer to $110.

JCgrind said:

Could you explain what you mean when you say that my range is capped and his isn't? Or does this just mean you exclude hands I'd obv 3b, etc?

And yes, assuming a lag player opening wide 100bbs deep, I will occasionally flat AA/KK

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i'm not sure about flatting 100 biebers deep but 200+ i think you have to consider it. i am drunk right now and will hopefully reevaluate this statement tomorrow

Please do, you've super confused me.

Why would we ever flat it to a single open 200bbs deep when std F3b is like 25% for most players?

Also, biebers fkn classic

standard fold to 3b is 25% in these games? holy shit jesus ****

I know right. Its not uncommon to see prople who literally NEVER fold o 3bs either awkwardly enough. This is why I'm not 3b'ing KJo OOP pre and I assume youre now cozy w 3bing AA 100% of the time lol

JCgrind said:

Why would we ever flat it to a single open 200bbs deep when std F3b is like 25% for most players?

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vanquish said:

standard fold to 3b is 25% in these games? holy shit jesus ****

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lol surely this is an exageration. If it isn't I made a terrible mistake playing zoom instead of regular games. I'd have said the average there was at least 60.

These aren't regular games, these are deep ante games. So yeah, it's standard. 25% F3B is actually me being generous with how often they fold