$100 NLHE 6-max: BvB rivers 2 pair facing shove.

Very first hand villain got dealt, so 0 reads.

PokerStars - $1 NL (6 max) - Holdem - 4 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 100 BB
CO: 52.4 BB
BTN: 254.17 BB
Hero (SB): 105.9 BB

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has 9:club: A:heart:

fold, fold, Hero raises to 3 BB, BB calls 2 BB

Flop: (6 BB, 2 players) 3:diamond: J:heart: 9:spade:
Hero checks, BB bets 3 BB, Hero calls 3 BB

Turn: (12 BB, 2 players) 6:club:
Hero checks, BB bets 7 BB, Hero calls 7 BB

River: (26 BB, 2 players) A:spade:
Hero bets 13.62 BB, BB raises to 87 BB and is all-in

Reraise flop.
Lead turn
Call

Fold pre?? Win small lose big

Bruh........

I wouldve rathered u checked river

He wasnt slowing down... and even when we think we crush then u can shove over the top.


By betting river we get him to fold out worse hands.. and put us in tough spots with bluff/nuts

Pre im not folding, it is torwards the bottom of my SB open range but as a defaut I am opening here. Why would I raise flop? I dont get it, im assuming "to see where we are at" but that play is not in my arsenal.

If I check river is it just a call? Is worse calling a check/ jam? I donked river because I figured the A hits my range and it will slow down his bluffs and he checks back all of his marginals. So I was going for a call from his Jx, 1010, 9x, 63s maybe even weak Ax he was bluffing with that got there. I am unsure but without being results orienated over the spot we got put in that this donk may be the best line? I even thought about leaving river totally blank when I posted this because that was a toughish decision too.

Also, how often am I inducing a bluff shove here with my weak line and my river lead that looks like a weak blocker bet? Is he ever shoving worse for value? 63, j9, A6, A3, A9?

I think we have to find a fold here. We have to be good here a good percentage of the time, and a river overbet shove is almost always the nuts. I seriously doubt he would overbet shove with a weaker two pair. People overbet because they want to get maximum value. A lot of times, I overbet shove the river with the nuts to make it look like a bluff, like I want a fold. I've gotten hero called by KK with a four to a straight on a board and an A when I overbet 4x the pot on the river with my rivered set of threes in a 3-bet pot. Gotten called by underpairs, TPGK, second pair to the board, etc. Oh, and overbetting with the nut straight with four to a straight has made me tons of money. People can never a fold straight, and one time I got some guy to hero me with two pair when I overbet 20x the pot (lol). I actually folded a straight in one hand; it was so sick. After I got raised on the turn and bombed all-in overbet on the river, there wasn't a single hand I could put him on other than j10o on a Q8795 board when I held 56s.

We are beating none of his value range, which are basically sets and at the very bottom of it AJ. And the A hits our range very hard, so it's less likely he's bluffing at it. We've shown a lot of strength by check-calling oop twice and leading the river, but yet he still jams over us.

Also, what I find a lot of people do is when they flop a nutted hand, they bet small to keep you in. And then they bomb the river in a last effort to get maximum value. On the flop and turn he basically bet half-pot. I think if he really wanted you to fold and was semi-bluffing with Q10 or something, he'd bet 60-66% on flop and/or turn to get you off your hand. The bet sizing throughout this hand looks like he was just luring you in and bombed the river in a last attempt to get huge value when he realized you rivered a strong hand. I just think that against an unknown, most of the time we are not good here. People tend to be very unbalanced in their play, and a river overbet shove is heavily skewed towards nutted hands. I mean, the way you played the hand, it could look like you were stubborn with AK because the bets were so small. That's a terrible way to play AK unless you had some sick reads, but I wouldn't be surprised if some players would check-call AK OOP twice readless. Unless it is Bovada Zone, I seriously doubt many would even try getting someone off TPTK, overpair, or better.

MinhANguyen said:

Also, what I find a lot of people do is when they flop a nutted hand, they bet small to keep you in. And then they bomb the river in a last effort to get maximum value. On the flop and turn he basically bet half-pot. I think if he really wanted you to fold and was semi-bluffing with Q10 or something, he'd bet 60-66% on flop and/or turn to get you off your hand. The bet sizing throughout this hand looks like he was just luring you in and bombed the river in a last attempt to get huge value when he realized you rivered a strong hand. I just think that against an unknown, most of the time we are not good here.

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I agree with this. Although QT is a possibility, I do think that if the villain had QT, he probably would've bet more on the flop/turn. So I think that the villain most likely has a set here.

I agree with you guys that his bet sizing is not one he would take with a bluff.

Am I ever folding turn or is it a call with near the top of my bluff catching range?

Do you guys think river should be a x/call or bet/fold? I still like leading river here because he is checking back so many value hands and probably not bluffing often.

IPlay said:

Also, how often am I inducing a bluff shove here with my weak line and my river lead that looks like a weak blocker bet? Is he ever shoving worse for value? 63, j9, A6, A3, A9?

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Who says opponent will act the same when we just check? ...

We bet showing strength, if he has a strong hand he wants the money in.
If we show no strength and check he'll give us a decent price to call wanting action if he's strong.


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I do like check raising flop with air/nutty type hands in this spot esp against ppl I know. Because realise when I have it all too late and I usually get abused lol. I only use it round steal situations though when I hit 2nd pair hands because I know most villains won't continue without top pair and they should find their fold button 60% of the time if not more depending on villain.

I initially wanted to chastise you for playing such a bad hand OOP, but I probably couldn't stop myself either.

I kinda want to call the river, he's repping like AJ, maybe a slow played set. Super tight range for BvB. And he's certainly got air in his range that make it to the river (QT, KQ, ect.).

River I'd lean towards betting, our hand is too good and lots of Jx will wuss out of a value bet.

I think turn is a call since we are at the top of our bluff catching range. There arent that many hands that beat us, and I think it'd be too nitty to fold second pair TK to two barrels OOP. They can have a lot of air and semi-bluffs with gs + overcards, A high, small pps (yes, lots of fish do not understand SDV), OESD, etc.

And yes river should be bet/fold. I like your sizing because jacks will almost always make a crying call for a half-sized pot bet, even though they know they're beat. He will just check back all his SDV and marginal holdings, and the A is not a great card for him to bluff at.

Isn't A9 a pretty standard open here? We are 4 handed and it folded to us.

Yes it is it deserves a raise... Kx Ax is a raise. If the opponent is right even 32o if a raise.

It just depends what you do when ppl play back at you.


but i guess no reads on villain we have to play tighter i think that's where you went wrong. We don't know if he's a calling station or a reg or anything.

Just raise. And steal ... If he calls just giveup hand. Hard with no reads to play back at him.

IPlay said:

Isn't A9 a pretty standard open here? We are 4 handed and it folded to us.

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A9o is a pretty standard open even in 6-max BvB. For me though, it is the bottom of my raising range, but it is still worth an open imo. And it's 4-handed, guys, we can't just be waiting for premiums. The blinds are going dwindle your stack.

If you asked me, people steal far too often from the SB. You get called crazy wide, and are forced to play out OOP.

A9o is beyond standard to open pre lets not even suggest doing otherwise.

played well until river imo, i think check call or raise makes a bit more sense after you x/c twice, villain can still value bet thin because you remove most Ax when you x/c the turn and he still has a lot of air some of which will end up bluffing.

Jesus people are folding A9o from the SB? so people are opening less than 17% bvb?

duggs said:

Jesus people are folding A9o from the SB? so people are opening less than 17% bvb?

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Right, whats your play on river? X/call, x/raise, donk/fold, donk/call?

I agree to a point Acky but does removing Ax from my range make my bet look like a hand that wants a cheap showdown vs a hand thats wants a call from Jx? So he may be bluffing more often?

I'm probably wrong being the donk I am, but I really think the mistake was not betting into him on the flop. For me that's how I find out where he is. Only time I would not is if I wanted to draw or induce a bluff back at me. I think he either has an Ace or two pair and thinks he has best. That or he thinks you are weak and he can bully you off.

Why not bet into him on the flop and win? If you think you are super ahead then I call with two pair on the river. But generally I try to decide on the flop what I think is going on, or make a plan to figure hi out.

AJ or trips would be a cooler in my opinion. But I think trips would be likely to reraise a bet into the flop which is half the reason I like betting into people. You get trapped sometimes, but I think the fold equity protection is worth it, and when you get reraised you decide what to do based on the player. (I realize that doesn't help here, so I generally assume they are a good player until proven otherwise). Occasionally the idiot has a big pocket pair, but more often than not they are getting their giggles on with that river shove.

IPlay said:

Right, whats your play on river? X/call, x/raise, donk/fold, donk/call?

I agree to a point Acky but does removing Ax from my range make my bet look like a hand that wants a cheap showdown vs a hand thats wants a call from Jx? So he may be bluffing more often?

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i check, he is going to bluff it and i dont think he xb a J, so let him value cut himself, we dont really have any bluffs when we take this line.

We are never raising when we check? Just call? This is a pretty big hand BvB but what worse will call c/raise? What is your thoughts on just cbetting flop?

cbet is fine, we still get value, i like x/c to induce tho its also fine. optimal probably contains some of both with this hand

rlzaleski said:

I'm probably wrong being the donk I am, but I really think the mistake was not betting into him on the flop. For me that's how I find out where he is. Only time I would not is if I wanted to draw or induce a bluff back at me. I think he either has an Ace or two pair and thinks he has best. That or he thinks you are weak and he can bully you off.

Why not bet into him on the flop and win? If you think you are super ahead then I call with two pair on the river. But generally I try to decide on the flop what I think is going on, or make a plan to figure hi out.

AJ or trips would be a cooler in my opinion. But I think trips would be likely to reraise a bet into the flop which is half the reason I like betting into people. You get trapped sometimes, but I think the fold equity protection is worth it, and when you get reraised you decide what to do based on the player. (I realize that doesn't help here, so I generally assume they are a good player until proven otherwise). Occasionally the idiot has a big pocket pair, but more often than not they are getting their giggles on with that river shove.

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Betting for protection is not a valid reason to bet. We either strictly bet for value or as a bluff. Checking second pairs to the board is pretty standard, especially readless. We are either way ahead or way behind here. We also check to induce bluffs. We NEVER bet to "find where we stand." That's a very big mistake that many beginning players make. You are spewing money by doing this.

There is no way villain thinks we are weak in this hand unless he has no ability to hand read or is a complete maniac. We check called the flop and the turn, and led out on the river. This is actually a very typical line for a strong hand, typically two pair. Most villains don't want us to check behind our marginal holdings (TPDK, 2nd pairs, etc) and so lead out on the river. An overbet shove on the river is 99% the nuts, especially at micro/low stakes. Especially when they overbet shove over us a bet/raise OTR.

If we bet and he calls, it puts us in a tough spot. He could have floated with A high, a gutshot, an OESD, and bluff on the turn, representing the Jack. By betting the flop, we don't really accomplish anything. He calls with any Jack, 1010, and sets, which crush us. And we can easily get floated by his junk and get bluffed off our hand. By betting, we are essentially turning our hand into a bluff. We should use our hand here as a bluff-catcher.

I'd rather bet the flop with bottom pair instead, as we have 5 outs to a two pair or trips, and because we simply cannot profitably just check-call bottom pair OOP. And when you do hit your trips or two pair after betting your bottom pair, it is generally very well-disguised and easy to get paid off on. Check-calling 2nd pair to the board is, on the other hand, generally profitably if we can hand read well and bluff-catch.

And once you check-call the flop, you represent no bluffs but rather a made hand. It could also scare your opponent, thinking that you might be trapping. Many villains will just give up after the flop once you call them. Depending on board textures, we should check-call two barrels and fold to a third barrel unless we have a sick read.

I am personally a nit when it comes to SB vs BB because I just think it's very difficult to profitably play loose from the SB. On the other hand I am a LAG when I am the BB and I have been doing well at it even against good opponents.

In the SB I am particularly tight against good LAG players. I would loosen up a bit against TAGs who fold too much but from my experience every good tight player has a breaking point as far as stealing their BB from the SB goes. Against fish I'll just play a standard fit or fold game and the same goes for unknown opponents.

In 6 handed game I believe it's not atrocious to fold A9o in the SB but I have to agree doing that 4 handed is just too much. However if you are playing 4 handed only because of a fish then I dunno it's perhaps better to make small mistakes than bigger ones.

As far as this hand is concerned I would fold the turn. However if I did make it to the river I would call since the general level of play at the stakes I play warrants a call from an unknown opponent. I have not played 100NL so this is up to you to judge.

Donking or check raising river are both fine in my opinion.