$100 NLHE 6-max: 2nd nuts on the river 200bb's deep, and TAGnit bet/3-bets!

c9h13no3

c9h13no3

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$100 NL HE 6-max: 2nd nuts on the river 200bb's deep, and TAGnit bet/3-bets!

Villain is a 25/17/23%(2.5) TAG reg over 760 hands. I've been abusing him pretty hard since his fold to 3-bet % is quite high. I didn't c-bet the flop because I was distracted in another hand.

Idk guys, if there was ever a good spot to fold the 2nd nuts, this seems like a good spot to do it... It is a back door flush though, but villain is obviously not bluffing here and the Qs is on the board....

Ultimate Bet, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 6 Players

SB: $207.50 (207.5 bb)
BB: $207.15 (207.2 bb)
UTG: $98.50 (98.5 bb)
MP: $78.45 (78.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $207.35 (207.4 bb)
BTN: $125.65 (125.7 bb)

Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with K♠ 3♠
2 folds, Hero raises to $3.50, 2 folds, BB calls $2.50

Flop: ($7.50) 7 A♣ Q♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($7.50) 5♠ (2 players)
BB bets $5, Hero calls $5

River: ($17.50) J♠ (2 players)
BB bets $12, Hero raises to $55, BB raises to $112, Hero?????
 
S93

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Given you probably have a very aggro image u dont think he will do this with AJ or KT?
meh idk, i dont beleive in backdoor flushes let alone two in one hand but one the off chance he has it i just flat here.
Where also geting a great price 57$ into 184$ means we dont have to be good all that often, and even if i have no idea what a tagish 100nl reg does this with i have a hard time believing he doesnt do this atleast occasionaly with a smaller flush,AJ,KT or maybe a weird JJ.
 
widowmaker89

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Well I dont think it being backdoor matters to much here since we checked the flop but I still think we have to call this. He probably knows you value raise a lot more than big flushes here(id guess this is true) so he could be doing this is lower flushes or maybe even a straight. Id expect a call from 2 pair and probably sets but I wouldnt totally discount air either, especially if he is observant and aggressive.

even if he only does this with flushes, there are enough non Axs hands that play this way to make the call getting the good odds. People who call to much love calling SC so 78, 9T type hands are there. Is he calling with A2s-A7s very often? I am not too thrilled about calling but given the odds and hands he probably does this with I dont think we can fold this.
 
WVHillbilly

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Is he flatting from the BB with Axs? If not you're afraid of what only A9s/ATs? That's it. I don't think I can ever fold here.
 
Suited Frenzy

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It's very hard to put him on the nut flush being it was backdoor & being he checked the flop w/ an ace out there. I would've bet that flop if I seen top pr & backdoor nut flush draw. Even though he is a TAG, I really can't put him on the NUTz in this spot. You can't just call here, it's either all-in or fold being the pot size & your hand strength.

He definitely doesn't put you on the hand you have. He could've hit 2pr on the river (Q J maybe) & being you checked the flop behind & also just flat called his bet on the turn, he doesn't put you on the 2nd NUTz & thinks you are tryin' to steal the pot w/ the $55 bet.

W/ the 2nd best hand & the pot size, I would go for it & shove.
 
WVHillbilly

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It's very hard to put him on the nut flush being it was backdoor & being he checked the flop w/ an ace out there. I would've bet that flop if I seen top pr & backdoor nut flush draw. Even though he is a TAG, I really can't put him on the NUTz in this spot. You can't just call here, it's either all-in or fold being the pot size & your hand strength.

He definitely doesn't put you on the hand you have. He could've hit 2pr on the river (Q J maybe) & being you checked the flop behind & also just flat called his bet on the turn, he doesn't put you on the 2nd NUTz & thinks you are tryin' to steal the pot w/ the $55 bet.

W/ the 2nd best hand & the pot size, I would go for it & shove.

If we shove are we really getting calls from anything that we beat? I don't think so unless he sees us as just crazy bluffy. I much prefer a call to a shove.
 
Suited Frenzy

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If we shove are we really getting calls from anything that we beat? I don't think so unless he sees us as just crazy bluffy. I much prefer a call to a shove.

Dude, it's only $31.85 more to call if he shoves. Even if he was bluffin' here, it would make sense to call only that amount more into a pot like that just for info. If he doesn't call, it's a WIN/WIN situation. You take down the nice pot & still don't let the others see what you're playin'.
 
S93

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Dude, it's only $31.85 more to call if he shoves. Even if he was bluffin' here, it would make sense to call only that amount more into a pot like that just for info. If he doesn't call, it's a WIN/WIN situation. You take down the nice pot & still don't let the others see what you're playin'.
both players have like 90 behind.
 
WVHillbilly

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Dude, it's only $31.85 more to call if he shoves. Even if he was bluffin' here, it would make sense to call only that amount more into a pot like that just for info. If he doesn't call, it's a WIN/WIN situation. You take down the nice pot & still don't let the others see what you're playin'.

It's like $87 more if he shove (effective stacks are 207bb and he's put is ~120bb). I call.
 
widowmaker89

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Even if it was $32 I do not expect to be looked up by bluffs for information. While I will sometimes call expecting to lose just to see what they have, nobody is doing it for 32bb.
 
Suited Frenzy

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It's like $87 more if he shove (effective stacks are 207bb and he's put is ~120bb). I call.

Now I'm really confused. Either my math is WAY off or I am adding an extra bet into the equation. Please list how it's $87 more to call.

$207.35 (starting amount) - $63.50 (invested in pot) = $143.85 (left)

$143.85 (left) - $112 (bet of BB) = $31.85 (more to call)

:confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused::confused:
 
widowmaker89

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Its 57 more to call not 112. The raise was to 112.
 
joos

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why are u not betting this flop? K high is rarely good when getting to showdown and you are folding out alot of pairs that missed.
 
vanquish

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ugh fold. he never ever has worse
 
F

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I bet you get shown the nuts quite a bit here but i can't fold this getting 3:1.
 
SeanyJ

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I wouldn't be able to find a fold here, you'll get shown the nuts a lot but I think it's possible he could have rivered a straight or maybe even a set of jacks and is oblivious to the backdoor flush. Seems like a crying call to me which seems weird to say when you have the 2nd nuts. :p
 
F Paulsson

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I'm a big fan of folding anything but the nuts to river raises, but I don't think I could fold this. He's going to show up here with a set, KTs (yeah, not likely, but then again if he's flatting ATs pre, it's not a huge leap to think KTs) and a smaller flush often enough to make up for the times he has specifically As9s or AsTs.
 
rwilson

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I'd flat call here and consider myself very unlucky if I'd backed into the second nut flush at the same time my opponent had backed into the nut flush heads up!!
 
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