[100 NL] Series of big pots

(this breaks some HA rules and might be better in Strategy. Totally happy if someone wants to move it )

Ok, just played a 2.5k session and I was very happy with how I played in general despite finishing down by a few buy-ins (ok, quite a few buy-ins). That doesn't really matter much, but what I am increasingly interested in is how I'm playing the big hands. So I wrote a report for PT3 and got the hands where I lost >50bbs.

Some of these are standard, but I just want to check them all. Lots of learning going on for me atm and this is a big part of it.

Not giving you any reads, please treat as unknowns for the purpose of these exercise as I'm interested in how reads would affect your decisions in some of the hands.

This isn't a thinly veiled bad beat thread, I'm very keen to understand more about the mechanics of the bigger pots.

(btw, the last one is a close to tilt as I get, as he pretty much announced AA imo )
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HAND #1
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poker stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
MP1: $131.90 (131.9 bb)
MP2: $65 (65 bb)
MP3: $29.40 (29.4 bb)
CO: $124.20 (124.2 bb)
BTN: $112.05 (112.1 bb)
SB: $110.10 (110.1 bb)
Hero (BB): $100 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $123.50 (123.5 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is BB with T J
UTG+1 raises to $4, 4 folds, BTN calls $4, SB folds, Hero calls $3
Flop: ($12.50) A J J (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $7, BTN calls $7, Hero calls $7
Turn: ($33.50) 9 (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 bets $20, BTN folds, Hero raises to $89 and is all-in, UTG+1 calls $69
River: ($211.50) 2 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Results: $211.50 pot ($3 rake)
Hero showed T J (three of a kind, Jacks) and lost (-$100 net)
UTG+1 showed J Q (three of a kind, Jacks) and won $208.50 ($108.50 net)



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HAND #2
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
BTN: $101 (101 bb)
SB: $65 (65 bb)
BB: $20 (20 bb)
UTG+1: $144.50 (144.5 bb)
MP1: $98.50 (98.5 bb)
Hero (MP2): $100 (100 bb)
MP3: $98.50 (98.5 bb)
CO: $100 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is MP2 with 4 4
UTG+1 calls $1, MP1 folds, Hero calls $1, MP3 folds, CO calls $1, BTN folds, SB completes, BB checks
Flop: ($5) A 2 4 (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $4, CO folds, SB calls $4, BB folds, UTG+1 raises to $15, Hero raises to $99 and is all-in, SB folds, UTG+1 calls $84
Turn: ($207) 9 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($207) Q (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Results: $207 pot ($3 rake)
UTG+1 showed 5 3 (a straight, Ace to Five) and won $204 ($104 net)
Hero mucked 4 4 (three of a kind, Fours) and lost (-$100 net)


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HAND #3
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
UTG+1: $100 (100 bb)
MP1: $105.85 (105.9 bb)
MP2: $22.50 (22.5 bb)
MP3: $247.60 (247.6 bb)
CO: $100 (100 bb)
BTN: $115.20 (115.2 bb)
Hero (SB): $100.50 (100.5 bb)
BB: $88 (88 bb)
UTG: $122.60 (122.6 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is SB with Q Q
5 folds, CO raises to $4, BTN folds, Hero raises to $12, BB folds, CO calls $8
Flop: ($25) 3 A 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $14, Hero calls $14
Turn: ($53) 7 (2 players)
Hero bets $25, CO raises to $50, Hero folds
Results: $103 pot ($3 rake)
CO mucked and won $100 ($49 net)



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HAND #4
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 8 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
MP3: $21.60 (21.6 bb)
CO: $40.75 (40.8 bb)
BTN: $29 (29 bb)
SB: $37.05 (37.1 bb)
BB: $100 (100 bb)
Hero (UTG+1): $125.30 (125.3 bb)
MP1: $98.70 (98.7 bb)
MP2: $29.20 (29.2 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG+1 with K K
MP3 posts BB out of position, CO posts BB out of position, Hero raises to $6, MP1 folds, MP2 calls $6, 4 folds, BB raises to $26, Hero raises to $125.30 and is all-in, MP2 folds, BB calls $74 and is all-in
Flop: ($208.50) 8 4 6 (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: ($208.50) J (2 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($208.50) T (2 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: $208.50 pot ($3 rake)
BB showed A A (a pair of Aces) and won $205.50 ($105.50 net)
Hero mucked K K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$100 net)

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HAND #5
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
BB: $19 (19 bb)
UTG: $100 (100 bb)
UTG+1: $55 (55 bb)
MP1: $155.50 (155.5 bb)
MP2: $198 (198 bb)
MP3: $21 (21 bb)
Hero (CO): $121 (121 bb)
BTN: $25 (25 bb)
SB: $68.20 (68.2 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with K K
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $3, 3 folds, Hero raises to $9, 3 folds, UTG+1 calls $6
Flop: ($19.50) 9 4 5 (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $15, UTG+1 raises to $30, Hero raises to $72, UTG+1 calls $16 and is all-in
Turn: ($111.50) 2 (2 players, 1 is all-in)
River: ($111.50) A (2 players, 1 is all-in)
Results: $111.50 pot ($3 rake)
UTG+1 showed 9 9 (three of a kind, Nines) and won $108.50 ($53.50 net)
Hero mucked K K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$55 net)


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HAND #6
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
UTG: $100.60 (100.6 bb)
UTG+1: $140 (140 bb)
MP1: $20 (20 bb)
MP2: $142.20 (142.2 bb)
MP3: $181.45 (181.5 bb)
Hero (CO): $100 (100 bb)
BTN: $100 (100 bb)
SB: $19 (19 bb)
BB: $100 (100 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is CO with T T
5 folds, Hero raises to $4, BTN raises to $12.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $8.50
Flop: ($26.50) Q 7 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN checks
Turn: ($26.50) 5 (2 players)
Hero bets $14, BTN calls $14
River: ($54.50) T (2 players)
Hero bets $14, BTN raises to $64, Hero raises to $73.50 and is all-in, BTN calls $9.50 and is all-in
Results: $201.50 pot ($3 rake)
Hero showed T T (a full house, Tens full of Sevens) and lost (-$100 net)
BTN showed Q Q (a full house, Queens full of Sevens) and won $198.50 ($98.50 net)

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HAND #7
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Poker Stars, $0.50/$1 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 9 Players
Hand History Converter by Stoxpoker
MP2: $187.35 (187.4 bb)
MP3: $190.55 (190.6 bb)
CO: $28.60 (28.6 bb)
BTN: $19.90 (19.9 bb)
SB: $100 (100 bb)
BB: $26.20 (26.2 bb)
Hero (UTG): $117.25 (117.3 bb)
UTG+1: $14 (14 bb)
MP1: $22.35 (22.4 bb)
Pre-Flop: Hero is UTG with K K
Hero raises to $4, 6 folds, SB raises to $100 and is all-in, BB calls $25.20 and is all-in, Hero calls $96
Flop: ($226.20) 9 T 2 (3 players, 2 are all-in)
Turn: ($226.20) A (3 players, 2 are all-in)
River: ($226.20) 3 (3 players, 2 are all-in)
Results: $226.20 pot ($3 rake)
SB showed A A (three of a kind, Aces) and won $223.20 ($123.20 net)
Hero mucked K K (a pair of Kings) and lost (-$100 net)
BB mucked 9 9 (three of a kind, Nines) and lost (-$26.20 net)

Let's be nice and not complain about one hand per thread and not giving away results and all that...

HAND #1: i don't like the raise. We can't worry about draws here and villain shouln't call a raise unless he has us beat, so i don't see what raising accomplishes here. I probably call 3 barrels anyway and loose my stack too, but why do you raise?

HAND #2: This is why I raise 44 preflop here. Sets are monsters when few people see the flop, not so much in big family pots. Post-flop is fine, though, obviously. enough draws on board and enough equity against the made straight anyway.

HAND #3: Meh, playing oop sucks. And WA/WB does not really apply oop. Check calling is a bit like showing villain you cards face up. Your line is really weird, though. I think this is really a hand were reads would affect my prefered line a lot.

HAND #4: standard, although some people at 100nl 3bet so rarely that i think a fold might be good (although i'd never find a fold with KK, tbh)

HAND #5: standard. Although i might 3bet a bit bigger preflop.

HAND #6: not sure i like calling the 3bet preflop. villain dependent i think. postflop is find and sick cooler obviously.

HAND #7: standard unless villain is 1/1/inf. take a note. buddy list fish ?

BelgoSuisse said:

HAND #1: i don't like the raise. We can't worry about draws here and villain shouln't call a raise unless he has us beat, so i don't see what raising accomplishes here. I probably call 3 barrels anyway and loose my stack too, but why do you raise?

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what i mean is that i like 2 lines in this spot. Either bet/bet/bet or call/call/call. You're really at the bottom of your range for a beluga unless you sometimes bluff in this spot? And bottom of your range means you only get called by hands that beat you.

Also, preflop, i probably squeeze or fold instead of flat calling. I hate playing oop and here is a spot where i can easily avoid it by not calling. If villain is loose enough to open QJs in EP, i think a squeeze is probably best here.

Thanks Belgo I agree with all of that.

I don't normally call the 44 (it's normally a raise).

The QQ I was trying to be clever (and failed)

The TJ I had thoughts that he had AK, but I agree there's no value in the raise.

Comments about bet sizing and 3bets by villains are very helpful too

Haven't looked at other comments, but:

1. Preflop's fine, if the initial raiser were later I may consider a squeeze, but with no one behind you to squeeze and seeing a flop 3-way your hand is great. Postflop you're going to lose all your money every time on this board, BUT you project such super-strength check-calling flop and then check-raising turn, AK may even find a fold. I think I may even like a lead here (because AK's not going anywhere and may even raise out of confusion) but at least I think I C/R this flop.

2. Call isn't terrible with a limper in front but I like raising to about 4x here. Postflop is really good, definitely shoving is good because it may get someone to put you on a combo draw and call with Ax.

3. I just cbet and shut down if called/raised. It may look transparent but pretty much any other line we take just spews chips and most people play pretty straightforward in 3-bet pots especially with an ace.

4. 100 BBs deep with dead money in the pot and a good squeeze opportunity for him you really can't fold KK here.

5. Thank him for set mining you oop. Obviously fine preflop, and on that flop many people like to go crazy with TT-QQ (which whether it's good or not are hands people like to call 3-bets oop with). You crush his range and in a 3-bet pot with an overpair you just have to stack.

6. Fold pre. TT is not a hand you want to be playing oop in a 3-bet pot. If he's been 3-betting you a ton then 4-bet him light. I just think flatting 3-bets oop with hands like TT is burning money. If you're in position I think flatting would be fine here. Postflop I think it's fine.

7. That shove is going to be AK/QQ a lot more than AA imo, along with the occaisional J4o or something trying to hit and run. Gotta call, standard cooler.

Need to be 3betting larger. vs $3 i think you should make it $11 and $14 vs $4 open.

Don't like hand 3 just coz you are never representing anything at all unless you have some really bizzare history with villain. w/o reads i tend to just lead with QQ and probably c/f if he continues. w/ reads you can take tons of creative lines once you know how villain plays in a 3B pot and his range preflop and on the flop, etc. But i don't think the c/c line works unless you have some metagame plan since it turns your face up a little too much. It seems a little silly coz you are almost turning QQ into a bluff (tho sometimes villain will call flop with an underpair you beat and check to river) but you don't have too many options when you don't know villain's preflop range very well or how he plays in 3B pots. I'm not sure tho coz i did struggle quite a bit with this spot when i plaeyd 6max unless i knew villain's tendencies somewhat.

tytyty chaps

This is exactly the feedback I was looking for.

fwiw, if villain in hand 3 was kinda bluffy and had a low fold to 3B - if you are going to take the line you are taking i almost think you have to ship the turn. Your line is so weak and so unbelievable that i think villain might very well just bluff $50 here to win $75 ALOT if that was consistent with his play in which case you are actually not necessarily in that bad shape. For all intensive purposes QQ is AT on that board given what villain is repping, so if you are giong to take a line taht is going to induce so much action like you did then i'd just ship it in and expecxt to be vs. a bluff enough for it to be profitable. In any case, you can't do what you did (make an inducing bet, villain makes a polarized play which if it was a bluff gives him superb odds, and then fold). Mb it is just me but villain's bet sizing looks super weak on that hand.

Which is sort of what i mean by you can start to play hands like #3 quite good when you have some reads on villain's tendencies, but it is pretty hard vs an unknown.

feitr said:

Don't like hand 3 [...] But i don't think the c/c line works unless you have some metagame plan since it turns your face up a little too much.

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This is especially true because there's the flush draw possibility on this board and it's standard to be cbetting TP here, and betting or check-raising draws, so when you check, most villains will understand you're going for pot control and so they can barrel you out of the hand at will.

With history you can play the he knows i know he knows game, but without history, cbet/fold is just less spewy.

feitr said:

fwiw, if villain in hand 3 was kinda bluffy and had a low fold to 3B - if you are going to take the line you are taking i almost think you have to ship the turn. Your line is so weak and so unbelievable that i think villain might very well just bluff $50 here to win $75 ALOT if that was consistent with his play in which case you are actually not necessarily in that bad shape. For all intensive purposes QQ is AT on that board given what villain is repping, so if you are giong to take a line taht is going to induce so much action like you did then i'd just ship it in and expecxt to be vs. a bluff enough for it to be profitable. In any case, you can't do what you did (make an inducing bet, villain makes a polarized play which if it was a bluff gives him superb odds, and then fold). Mb it is just me but villain's bet sizing looks super weak on that hand.

Which is sort of what i mean by you can start to play hands like #3 quite good when you have some reads on villain's tendencies, but it is pretty hard vs an unknown.

Click to expand...

I take a fair number of passive lines with decent hands and wake up on later streets (a legacy of my MTT game) but here I don't think there was any metagame to play off to justify it.

In the right spot check-call, bet has worked well for me, but with the 3bet, the board and lack of context, was nastiness by me and I wholeheartedly agree that it's a cbet-fold situation.

fwiw I think your 3-bet sizing is fine. I generally do 3x in position. It gives us a cheaper price (because 3-betting light in position is awesome) and generally no matter what our range is there's just no real reason to 3-bet bigger. I've even experimented a bit with 3-betting 3 -> 8 or 4 -> 11. We just already have a ton of leverage. I think if we're oop we need to 3-bet bigger, but what are you afraid of, that he's going to call a 3-bet oop with a wide range? I'll take a pot in position in a 3-bet pot against a wide range all day.

Irexes said:

I take a fair number of passive lines with decent hands and wake up on later streets (a legacy of my MTT game)

Click to expand...

I got the impression one reason you do that is also because you play too many pots out of position.

Playing in position is much more important in cash games than in MTTs as playing deeper means more postflop play. Most of my preflop choices are guided by my desire to get to the flop in position, tbh.

fwiw I think your 3-bet sizing is fine. I generally do 3x in position. It gives us a cheaper price (because 3-betting light in position is awesome) and generally no matter what our range is there's just no real reason to 3-bet bigger. I've even experimented a bit with 3-betting 3 -> 8 or 4 -> 11. We just already have a ton of leverage. I think if we're oop we need to 3-bet bigger, but what are you afraid of, that he's going to call a 3-bet oop with a wide range? I'll take a pot in position in a 3-bet pot against a wide range all day.

Click to expand...

It isn't so much about giving us a good price as much as bloating the pot when we are in position and have a huge advantage. I can completely see the logic behind the argument of making it bigger OOP, etc. and that is fine, but i still think 3x in btn is a little small when you are going to be a big winner playing 3Bs IP (taking down tons with cbets/double barrels, etc.).

BelgoSuisse said:

I got the impression one reason you do that is also because you play too many pots out of position.

Playing in position is much more important in cash games than in MTTs as playing deeper means more postflop play. Most of my preflop choices are guided by my desire to get to the flop in position, tbh.

Click to expand...

I think this observation is absolutely spot on and a critical one for people making the MTT to ring transition.

(fwiw I think postflop play in MTTs is fighting with broadswords, while Ring is rapiers, but that's for another thread)

Did some filtering on my 100nl data.

First graph is "saw flop=true, last to act on flop=true"

Second graph is "saw flop=true, last to act on flop=false"

Position postflop is huge.

BelgoSuisse said:

First graph is "saw flop=true, last to act on flop=true"
Second graph is "saw flop=true, last to act on flop=false"

Click to expand...

Note that I play full ring, so ending up playing as many as 41% of the pots where i see the flop as the last one to act is kind of challenging.

feitr said:

It isn't so much about giving us a good price as much as bloating the pot when we are in position and have a huge advantage. I can completely see the logic behind the argument of making it bigger OOP, etc. and that is fine, but i still think 3x in btn is a little small when you are going to be a big winner playing 3Bs IP (taking down tons with cbets/double barrels, etc.).

Click to expand...

Well if they're competent they won't be calling a ton of 3-bets oop. Of course if you have a villain who's just a fish that will call 3-bets of any size then by all means make it bigger. But generally I disagree that you win a ton with cbets, especially making it more. Most competent villains will 4-bet or fold oop, but if making it 3x encourages them to call more that's all the better, because as I said I want to get into that spot again and again and again where we're playing 3-bet pots with position and the initiative and they have a wide range.

My IP and oop graphs:

Also note that the only reason my oop is actually somewhat positive is that generally when I'm oop seeing flops I have a super-strong hand. Basically only exception is I raise hijack/CO and button/CO calls.

edit: Actually kinda surprised same amount of hands basically, but same as Belgo it's FR.

zachvac said:

Also note that the only reason my oop is actually somewhat positive is that generally when I'm oop seeing flops I have a super-strong hand. Basically only exception is I raise hijack/CO and button/CO calls.

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Or you're in blinds and get to see the flop for free in a limped pot.

TBH I am amazed at those graphs guys, I have really began to understand the importance after DC vids. This is the icing on the cake with raw facts and figures, I may do the same but only have 60k hand database

BelgoSuisse said:

Or you're in blinds and get to see the flop for free in a limped pot.

Click to expand...

Well I play on Stars, it allows me to fold in those spots .

Jurn8 said:

TBH I am amazed at those graphs guys, I have really began to understand the importance after DC vids. This is the icing on the cake with raw facts and figures, I may do the same but only have 60k hand database

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it's more than enough for what we did. My graph above is based on less than 30k hands since i only used my 100nl data.

ah ok, so its not really worth it at 10/25nl belgo or?

Jurn8 said:

ah ok, so its not really worth it at 10/25nl belgo or?

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no, you should get similar results at 10/25nl. I only filtered for 100nl because I was talking to Irexes who plays 100nl himself.

ah ok belgo I shall filter 25nl and see what my results are since I have been alot more aware of position at 25nl.

For example I used to open limp 22-55 in early position at 10NL but now I just muck them because I know at 100NL im just going to get isolated so much if I open limp so getting prepared. This will affect my graph overall.