$10 PLO 6-max: Line check in 3b pot

villain 30/16 fold to 3b% 57

I think I played this okay, knowing I'm probably behind on turn when $ goes in though...

On turn, feels like top pair/two pair hands here, sets would of raised flop...

Overall looking for a spot check plz

MERGE_GAME #4895466200287: Omaha PL $0.05/$0.10 02/11/2012 22:11:34
Table Temple of Artemis (48954662), Seats 6
Seat 1: RollnAround ($10.49 in chips)
Seat 2: Poisson9 ($6.74 in chips)
Seat 3: UMadBrah ($10.28 in chips)
Seat 4: gothevapors ($6.65 in chips)
Seat 5: PlasticS0UL ($22.31 in chips)
Seat 6: MrBuffone ($5.45 in chips) DEALER
RollnAround: Post SB $0.05
Poisson9: Post BB $0.10
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to RollnAround [8d 6s 7d 9s]
UMadBrah: Fold
gothevapors: Fold
PlasticS0UL: Raise $0.35
MrBuffone: Call $0.35
RollnAround: Raise $1.50
Poisson9: Fold
PlasticS0UL: Call $1.15
MrBuffone: Call $1.15
*** FLOP *** [5s Ts Ah]
RollnAround: Bet $3.45
PlasticS0UL: Call $3.45
MrBuffone: Fold
*** TURN *** [9c]
RollnAround: Allin $5.54
PlasticS0UL: Call $5.54
*** RIVER *** [2h]
*** SUMMARY ***

As nice as 6789 ds is I don't think I would be 3 betting this out of the SB. I used to end up 3 betting a ton out of the SB especially and eventually just found out that it caused more problems than it was worth. Had you been on the button I would have loved the 3b and entire line but from the SB you're just sort of spewing money with this hand.

Based on villain's stats I'm assuming he has at least Axxx with probably the Ace high flush draw or very easily two pair/combo draw type hands. You can't automatically assume that a set would have raised the flop as some people like to wait til the turn to see what comes sometimes. Once you're called on the flop though you almost have to shut down on the turn because you're blindly getting it in bad so much of the time.

Even assuming that we have the only live flush draw and that both ends of our straight draw are live that gives us around 32% equity when we've commited 47% to the pot. However I feel like alot of the time only a 6 and maybe a 9 ever bails us out here as we're probably drawing against two pair that we can't catch up to and/or against a FD that trumps ours. So really we're probably looking at 10-12% against the 47% we put in.

Basically what this boils down to is don't 3 bet hands like this out of the blind and once you're called on the flop I would check and re-evaluate the hand. Position just plays such an important factor in PLO that with a marginal hand on a board like this you're just left clueless so often. I personally would have flatted the raise pre and then play small ball from there based on my opponents moves.

dwbrown7680 said:

As nice as 6789 ds is I don't think I would be 3 betting this out of the SB. I used to end up 3 betting a ton out of the SB especially and eventually just found out that it caused more problems than it was worth. Had you been on the button I would have loved the 3b and entire line but from the SB you're just sort of spewing money with this hand.

Based on villain's stats I'm assuming he has at least Axxx with probably the Ace high flush draw or very easily two pair/combo draw type hands. You can't automatically assume that a set would have raised the flop as some people like to wait til the turn to see what comes sometimes. Once you're called on the flop though you almost have to shut down on the turn because you're blindly getting it in bad so much of the time.

Even assuming that we have the only live flush draw and that both ends of our straight draw are live that gives us around 32% equity when we've commited 47% to the pot. However I feel like alot of the time only a 6 and maybe a 9 ever bails us out here as we're probably drawing against two pair that we can't catch up to and/or against a FD that trumps ours. So really we're probably looking at 10-12% against the 47% we put in.

Basically what this boils down to is don't 3 bet hands like this out of the blind and once you're called on the flop I would check and re-evaluate the hand. Position just plays such an important factor in PLO that with a marginal hand on a board like this you're just left clueless so often. I personally would have flatted the raise pre and then play small ball from there based on my opponents moves.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the response Dbrown

1. So if were not 3b 6789ds from SB what are we 3b? Assuming all AAxx hands, so is that our whole range?

2. Its making sense now, 3b 6789 is spew bc we want a multi-way pot with a hand that flops so well, isolating with a 3b puts us facing lots of 4 big card hands, or bigger rundowns then ours

3. so your saying you would of flat called pre....are we c/r a cbet or just flatting again to see the turn?

xdeuceswild81xx said:

Thanks for the response Dbrown

1. So if were not 3b 6789ds from SB what are we 3b? Assuming all AAxx hands, so is that our whole range?

2. Its making sense now, 3b 6789 is spew bc we want a multi-way pot with a hand that flops so well, isolating with a 3b puts us facing lots of 4 big card hands, or bigger rundowns then ours

3. so your saying you would of flat called pre....are we c/r a cbet or just flatting again to see the turn?

Click to expand...

You can 3b rundown hands, but I wouldn't go as low as mid-rundown type ones. I would probably say AKQ10, AKJ10, KQJ10, something that has 3 face cards but with the mid run down type hands you just get into trouble a lot of the time. You are correct that you'd rather play these multi-way as they tend to play much better. As far as 3 betting AAxx hands, this is good as long as it's a decent type AAxx hand. AAQJ ss I would 3b, but I probably would just flat AA93 no suit/ss out of the SB because it's not that strong of a hand and if you do get more than one caller you're probably in trouble on the flop and have spewed money. The entire reason behind 3 betting AA type hands are to try and get 33% or more of the stack in pre so we have an ultra low SPR. Of course you can 3b any ok AA or KK hand if you're going to be HU with a shorter stack even if it's oop as they should play fine no matter what HU.

If we just flatted here and check the flop and someone leads I'm honestly probably just giving the hand up here as we don't flop anything but a mid FD that can be beat and backdoor str draws that are iffy at best because of the A10 on the flop (KQJ9 type hands have us utterly dominated). You can peel once to see if you catch FD on the turn if you want, but if you don't catch it then you have to release as you've lost odds of making it +EV to chase river probably not to mention it only being a 9 hi flush that's oop you're either not going to make anything or pay off a higher one alot of the time.

I guess basically what I'm saying is once we flat with this hand and see this flop, we should pretty much give up and be done with the hand as there is no +EV reason to continue at that point in a multi-way pot.

Nice analysis DW. +1 about flatting bad aces in SB. It has good deception value and bad aces are very, very hard to play OOP against passive players. I'd much prefer to 3b rundowns as they are a lot easier to play as well as having good barrel potential on lots of flops + turns.
As for the hand once you 3b in-game i'd take the same line, trying to rep the AAxx but jamming turn when we pick up straight outs to go with our flush outs.

As DW disagree's with this i'm going to run some simulations on PPT to see our equity and see if it's a leak of mine, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow

jbbb said:

Nice analysis DW. +1 about flatting bad aces in SB. It has good deception value and bad aces are very, very hard to play OOP against passive players. I'd much prefer to 3b rundowns as they are a lot easier to play as well as having good barrel potential on lots of flops + turns.
As for the hand once you 3b in-game i'd take the same line, trying to rep the AAxx but jamming turn when we pick up straight outs to go with our flush outs.

As DW disagree's with this i'm going to run some simulations on PPT to see our equity and see if it's a leak of mine, but that'll have to wait until tomorrow

Click to expand...

I don't hate this line, I just feel like with the villain in the hand he's going to call down with Axxx+FD or other combo draw/2p type hands that leave us hoping for the right card to win. On the turn we're betting $5.50 to win ~11.50 and with the hand we have I just don't think we have enough f/e or flat equity in general. Looking from villain's perspective he's calling $5.50 to win $17.00 which means he only needs 32% equity to justify a call and he can get 20% of that from a FD alone, not counting any pair he may already have that he can draw to and improve upon.

Bottom line is this is just a bad situation for us that shows why 3 betting mid and low rundown hands out of the blinds is a bad idea. Yes, there are sometimes where we flop gin on 5,6,7 boards, etc but so much of the time oop we're going to value own ourselves.

You're better off never 3-betting from the SB than stacking off here. If you do 3-bet from the SB, do it against someone who is opening so wide his postflop equity will suck or against someone who is supertight and will fold top pair on the flop.

I don't see why you pot/pot, if he has KKJ9 no spades he'll fold on the flop for 1/2 pot and you don't end up stacking off when you hit a straight draw.

u're OOP with a hand that plays well in multiway pots, so why u 3betted?
Also remember that the equity against a random hand goes fastly down as the rank of your rundown goes down