$10 PL O 6-max: Is this too Aggressive even for a cap game?

atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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Just wondering how aggressive to be with small sets like this in a cap game. ($4 cap)

Is this played too aggressively?

Any suggestions or comments welcome...
 

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BenLZ

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If villain is decent, you're even money at best. At worst, and quite possibly, you're up against a bigger set. I just really dislike small sets, but I don't play cap games so I guess after you re-raise you're basically committed to the cap. I'm kind of uncertain since I never played cap but I never like building big pots with bottom set. This is tricky. A situation you could avoid by folding pre. I know the ace is suited, but still.
 
kmixer

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Bottom set is very weak. Even two pair or a flush draw is not very far behind here. Once he three bets though I am thinking you are pretty much pot committed.
 
kmixer

kmixer

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I also agree that this is a pretty easy fold pre. The suited Ace is ok but you prefer the suited Ace to not have the same suit as your pair. That way some time you hit a flush/draw and sometime you hit a hit a set. In this case you will also be laying for bottom set 100% of the times. Much prefer to lay this hand in PLO8
 
atlantafalcons0

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Aggression Pays off

Here is the result of this hand for those of you who just couldn't wait any longer.
 

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Marginal

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So I assume you are new to omaha so I am not going to really comment on the hand but on preflop hand strength. In PLO, you are looking to have 4 cards that connect well with each other. The fact that you are double suited helps but 1 flush draw is poor and you have cards that do not play well together (as in with hitting straights etc). Another thing I like to point out to beginners is that the 4 cards produce 6 two card hands, so when you put it that way and expand out to see what 6 hands you have you will see how bad the hand really is. I know when you are now starting out, most hands look enticing but the more you play the more you will realize that these hands just are not profitable.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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So I assume you are new to omaha so I am not going to really comment on the hand but on preflop hand strength. In PLO, you are looking to have 4 cards that connect well with each other. The fact that you are double suited helps but 1 flush draw is poor and you have cards that do not play well together (as in with hitting straights etc). Another thing I like to point out to beginners is that the 4 cards produce 6 two card hands, so when you put it that way and expand out to see what 6 hands you have you will see how bad the hand really is. I know when you are now starting out, most hands look enticing but the more you play the more you will realize that these hands just are not profitable.

But I already know all that. So where do I go from here. Just stop CALLING with that type of hand?

I'm talking about my aggression on the flop - once I hit the low set (in a cap game) is it right for me to push the action?
 
kmixer

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The fact that you capped it was a bad idea. He had a ton of outs and missed them all but these types of "suckouts" against your bottom set will happen a lot. Try to play top set like this and maybe middle set. But be aware of the board and what hands could have you crushed. In this hand it was pretty much everything. Glad to see your set held up but the odds were very much against you.
 
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Marginal

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But I already know all that. So where do I go from here. Just stop CALLING with that type of hand?

I'm talking about my aggression on the flop - once I hit the low set (in a cap game) is it right for me to push the action?

No, you dont know that if you think this hand has value calling with preflop. For the aggression, 2 pair is the only hand you have beat.
 
kmixer

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No, you dont know that if you think this hand has value calling with preflop. For the aggression, 2 pair is the only hand you have beat.

And he is only slighty ahead of two pair.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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So, I shouldn't have called in the first place.

But then once I did, I still played it wrong?

Hmmmmm,
 
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Pantheon

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But I already know all that. So where do I go from here. Just stop CALLING with that type of hand?

I'm talking about my aggression on the flop - once I hit the low set (in a cap game) is it right for me to push the action?

The problem is that you can review and practice and talk about your flop aggression until your face turns blue and ultimately learn to play postflop near-perfectly but if you keep making fundamental errors preflop like limping here then you're going to lose money in the long-run regardless. You shouldn't even need to be asking the question you're asking because you shouldn't be in the hand.
 
atlantafalcons0

atlantafalcons0

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The problem is that you can review and practice and talk about your flop aggression until your face turns blue and ultimately learn to play postflop near-perfectly but if you keep making fundamental errors preflop like limping here then you're going to lose money in the long-run regardless. You shouldn't even need to be asking the question you're asking because you shouldn't be in the hand.

I would have folded if my opponent would have raised preflop.

I'm not folding this flop ever.
 
slycbnew

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Open limping w speculative hands in MP (and I'm being generous calling this a speculative hand) is a leak - how many flops are we looking to hit w this hand? If raised pf, as you say, we fold and lose a bb.

Against better opposition, getting all in on the flop w bottom set, even in a cap game imo, isn't a great idea imo. If someone's willing to get all in, we're probably flipping at best (here, we're 53%, change his hand a little bit and it's not hard to make it 47% - you can run simulations at www.propokertools.com - try changing the 8d or the 9d to the Qh) and at worst dominated by a larger set.
 
cjatud2012

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As many have said, this type of hand is a hand that will typically make second best hands. So the only times we'll get action is when someone has a bigger set than us pre-flop, or has a huge combo draw that is flipping with us, and sometimes better. On the flop, you could say the call was correct based on the pot odds. As previously stated, though, the mistake was your actions pre-flop. Maybe call this on the button in an unopened pot, but muck it otherwise.
 
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baudib1

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this is a best-case scenario and we're barely ahead.

Ah2h2c6c 51.71% 424 0
jhtd9d8d 48.29% 396 0
 
doops

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As others have pointed out, the problem is that you stayed in preflop with a hand that had little potential for winning (barring a nut flush) and a lot of potential for losing big. The baby set on the flop, in most cases. will look good only to a holdem player. Set mining is a lot trickier in PLO and bottom set is usually gonna kill you.

In PLO, many many hands have great potential on the flop. After all, everyone has 4 cards, so only a low board or completely unconnected board is gonna miss most players completely. Almost anyone playing a reasonable hand will have multiple outs to, often, the nuts. So as the turn and river fall, the relative strengths of Omaha hands can alter radically. It's not uncommon to have the nuts on the flop only to be dead meat by the river. In this climate, mining a baby set is like going out into a monsoon with a plastic rainhat and hoping not to get wet.

Bottom line is that you got very lucky to win this one. It won't happen often. So, if at all possible, try to slow it down a bit. Capping the betting is not, in the long run, a good plan with a baby set. The problem with PLO (if one is wary) is that the pot-sized bet becomes the thing to do and it becomes difficult to avoid the situation you were in.
 
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doops

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But I already know all that. So where do I go from here. Just stop CALLING with that type of hand?

I'm talking about my aggression on the flop - once I hit the low set (in a cap game) is it right for me to push the action?

Yes, stop calling with that type of hand.

If you'd had the nut flush draw on the flop and a straight draw as well as bottom set, that would make capping it reasonable. (Note that, with the hand you had, you could not possibly have an openend straight draw....) In PLO, you not only want a made hand but outs as well. Anything can happen in Omaha...and usually does.
 
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