$10 PL O 6-max: Flop bottom set w/ the HE gutshot draw OOP - bet flop? As played - c/c or c/r?

Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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$10 PL O 6-max: Flop bottom set w/ the HE gutshot draw OOP - bet flop? As played - c/c or c/r?

No stats on villian(s). Only the 10th hand into a Rush session.

I know most will say bet flop here w/ 3 people still in the pot to act behind, but as played, should I just flat or c/r?

I will post the result after some thoughts from others.

full tilt poker $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): $10.24
BB: $8.67
UTG: $20.00
MP: $14.60
CO: $8.70
BTN: $6.82

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 4 K 4 Q
UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 4 T 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.10, MP calls $1.10, BTN folds, Hero ???
 
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Marginal

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No, check fold flop and it is not even clsoe. This is the problem with playing marginal hands like this. Yes, fold preflop. Position is everything in this game and you do not have it and the hand is not very strong anyway. The reason for folding on the flop is that your hand looks good but at this point in time you only beat T9xx and not by much. There aren't many turn cards that improve your hand and almost all are horrible cards for your hand.
 
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Marginal

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A.K.Q.T.9.8.7.6 and clubs are all bad cards and 5.3.2 are ok cards. You have 3 outs that do not give you the nuts and even if you hit, there are tons of redraws that you will be up against.
 
Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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Really? Fold the 3rd NUTz?

I read your reasoning & it makes sense but how often do we really fold here after flopping the 3rd NUTz?

As for folding pre, I was gettin' almost 4/1 IOs. I had pretty decent cards to call here w/ those odds IMO. I actually took my time here pre-flop to think of what I could beat if it came a flop that would semi help me. There wasn't much (as you've said) but I knew if I hit, I had a decent chance of winning a good pot.
 
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Marginal

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Folding preflop reasoning

1) never have nuts

2) never have back up to anything

3) shitty spots, always.

3rd nuts is nothing in PLO btw and it will only be deteriorating with every card.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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Rush? def fold pf. People are autofolding marginal hands, we're going to be crushed, this hand is awful in sb.

I'd be tempted to donk bet/fold this hand on the flop, but marginal's right, there are too many hands that will call a donk bet (let alone raise) and too many turn cards we'll have to fold to if we do get called.
 
slycbnew

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Note that folding the flopped nuts in PLO is sometimes correct, 3rd nuts ain't nothin'.
 
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Marginal

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Note that folding the flopped nuts in PLO is sometimes correct, 3rd nuts ain't nothin'.

The question is, are we folding TTxx here? It might be close.
 
slycbnew

slycbnew

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The question is, are we folding TTxx here? It might be close.

I admit that I'm not good enough to fold top set, since I got smoked for 4bi's in a session last week (over 3 hands) getting it all in against the inevitable big wrap + fd... ;)
 
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Marginal

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Omaha is really a messy game but you got to love it.
 
Tygran

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Really? Fold the 3rd NUTz?

I read your reasoning & it makes sense but how often do we really fold here after flopping the 3rd NUTz?

...


Right here is what's wrong with your thinking. Also, this hand is an automatic preflop fold. Awful preflop hand.

Yes. You currently have the third nuts. The key word in that sentence is not "nuts" but "currently".

Omaha is a drawing game, and a set is little more than a draw to a full house. Making a lesser full house than someone else is a relatively common occurance in omaha whereas in hold'em it's much rarer. Non-nut full houses can easily cost you lots of money.

This is not hold em... middle and bottom set are massively weaker hands here than they are in hold em, especially without a good redraw.

in a 3 way pot, odds of bottom set being the best by the river, when you have no other good way to win the pot with your hand are poor at best. All you have to go with your set are a gut shot straight draw and a backdoor (non-nut) flush draw. As marginal already pointed out... a ridiculous amount of the deck makes it quite likely someone will beat you (with either a straight or flush) and if you are up against a higher set (not that uncommon) you are pretty much totally dead.


In this hand the best you can hope for is to be up against some combination of straight draws/flush draws and 2 pair hands. Your equity there isn't stellar but you do have some.

If one of your opponents has TT or 99, well...you have virtually zero chance of winning anything.
 
Tygran

Tygran

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The question is, are we folding TTxx here? It might be close.


no we aren't folding top set here. If we don't have to worry about higher sets in addition to all the other draws we definitely have enough equity.

The only board type I'd even really consider folding top set on would be something like T98 monotone. (and even then if there's a bet and a call three ways i'll likely call... one big problem with this board though is that with tons of action a straight-flush isn't that far fetched)

If you get to the river and the straight and/or flush have come in and you didn't get a board pair you can fold there to aggression.

plus the logic against getting heavily involved with 44 works in reverse with TT... we could be getting great value from 44 or 99.
 
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Marginal

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Yea we have like 38% against 2 opponents if 1 has NFD and other has wrap and adding in lower sets we have about 45 so we should never fold.
 
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baudib1

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seriously, FOLD PREFLOP...

if it's limped, don't even complete the small blind for 5 cents. It's Rush Poker, click quick fold and move on.

When I play OMaha, I limp good hands and wait for the inevitable raise from the blinds with someone who has QQ48 or 7755 or AQ29 rainbow or J854 double suited...so I can repop them with a superior hand AND play in position.

You have a hand that rarely makes the nuts, and, more importantly, almost never have the nuts with redraws, and you will be out of position in a game where position is crucial.

There are actually occasions in Omaha where you can flop the nuts and be a big dog to win the hand...Playing third set fast in a multiway pot in Omaha is like setting money on fire.
 
Suited Frenzy

Suited Frenzy

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Thanks for all the thoughts. As for my thoughts about this hand, uhmmm, there are sooo many now that I've read the comments. I still don't know exactly which move is the best for this situation but I guess if I have 1000s of these situations in the future, I'll eventually figure it out.

As played though, I checked here w/ the intention of raising. This move made even more sense to me when I saw the MP just flat a less than pot size bet from UTG (which I thought UTGs bet showed a ton of weakness when having multiple players in the hand & NOT betting pot) on a board like that which has lots of drawing potential. In other words, I knew that @ least the MP had shit or a really weak draw & UTG around the same...

So, I got uberaggressive & raised pot. They drew their white flags.

Results below.

Full Tilt Poker $0.05/$0.10 Pot Limit Omaha Hi - 6 players
The Official 2+2 Hand Converter Powered By DeucesCracked.com

Hero (SB): $10.24
BB: $8.67
UTG: $20.00
MP: $14.60
CO: $8.70
BTN: $6.82

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is SB with 4 K 4 Q
UTG raises to $0.35, MP calls $0.35, 1 fold, BTN calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 4 T 9 (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $1.10, MP calls $1.10, BTN folds, Hero raises to $5.90, UTG folds, MP folds

Final Pot: $4.80
Hero wins $4.48
(Rake: $0.32)
 
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Tygran

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So, I got uberaggressive & raised pot. They drew their white flags.


Congrats on it working this time.... I guess neither of them really had anything (which will certainly happen).

I mean this in all sincerity though...if you do this with bottom set on a regular basis it's going to seriously cost you long term.


also...don't feel too bad, lots of hold'em converts go nuts when they see a set cause it's such a strong hand in hold em... just not the case in omahaha land.





Also... as just a general rule of thumb... most hands with a single pair in them below KK in it are not great. Virtually no hand with 44 in it should ever be played for example (with the exception of AA44 or KK44). Some hands with 2 pairs in them that are 1) close together and 2)double suited can have some value though (8899 or QQTT ds for example are decent, especially in position...they are also stronger heads up than multiway). Certain hands like 9887 with at least one suit are playable in position.

other than that...if there's a pair in the hand, toss it. don't even complete the small blind.
 
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