$10 NLHE Full Ring: What's the optimal line here?

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doomasiggy

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poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 1662778
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $11.39
CO: $5.40
Hero (BTN): $9.10
SB: $9.90
BB: $7.31

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with A
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J
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UTG raises to $0.20, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.40, 1 fold, BB raises to $1.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.80

Flop: ($2.65) A
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A
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8
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(2 players)
BB bets $1.10, Hero raises to $2.80, BB calls $1.70

Turn: ($8.25) K
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(2 players)
BB bets $2.20, Hero raises to $5.10 all in, BB calls $1.11 all in

Feel like I played this pretty badly. About ten hands in so I can assume he's a standard player. He's probably got a big hand, AKs or better. I figured that he could also have KK, QQ, JJ and I could call and try and spike an A on the flop or on the turn. Didn't think he was 3-betting with AQ, so I figured there were two hands he could have that had Aces, and three which I could hit an A and then be ahead.

I reraised the UTG player because he was a bad player. I'd played against him before and he will raise oop with naff hands, once saw him raise from early position with 87o on a really tight table.

What would you guys have done?

I should mention, I did buy in for the full ten dollars, but I lost a bit.
 
Last edited:
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Let's see. If I just sat at your table without knowing anything else, I'd label CO,BB, and you as fish (didn't start the hand with a full stack). Min 3betting the UTG min raise is pretty bad. Calling the 4bet from a 70bb stack is horrid. Flopping trips and min raising is silly. Turn is standard as played.
 
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doomasiggy

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Min 3betting the UTG min raise is pretty bad.

How much should I have 3-bet, 0.60-.70?

Calling the 4bet from a 70bb stack is horrid.

So fold when 4bet?

Flopping trips and min raising is silly. Turn is standard as played.

Yeah I figured. Would I be right in thinking that roughly $4.00 would've been the best option?
 
dwbrown7680

dwbrown7680

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If you're going to 3b this, I would have 3b to .80-$1.00 or so. WV is right that calling that 4b was not a good idea. You should have probably flatted the flop and readjusted on the turn based on his move but as said getting it in on the turn is pretty standard.

This hand was played really weird by both of you and I imagine he showed up with either AK or KK unless he's somehow fishing it up with A10s. You don't really want to raise this flop huge because you're liable to get it in bad alot and not ahead by much if you do get it in good. (i.e AK/AQ/88 crushes us, we're ahead of A10 but this is a 4b pot)
 
Karkus77

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if you had previous with this guy and thought AJ is strong enough to 3bet his utg raise (i hate it btw), i would have raised to $0.70, after he 4bet it, i would have folded no question
 
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doomasiggy

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If you're going to 3b this, I would have 3b to .80-$1.00 or so. WV is right that calling that 4b was not a good idea. You should have probably flatted the flop and readjusted on the turn based on his move but as said getting it in on the turn is pretty standard.

Why flat the flop? Am I flatting the turn as well?

This hand was played really weird by both of you and I imagine he showed up with either AK or KK unless he's somehow fishing it up with A10s. You don't really want to raise this flop huge because you're liable to get it in bad alot and not ahead by much if you do get it in good. (i.e AK/AQ/88 crushes us, we're ahead of A10 but this is a 4b pot)

Nah, I won the hand, he had QQ pre, I just felt that I played it badly because I felt that: 1) I shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place, 2) I felt like I should've just put him all in on the flop since once he called the flop he was probably going all in on the turn anyway.

So, generally speaking, with no reads against the bb, it's a bigger 3bet against UTG, and a fold pre against the 4b from the bb?
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Just how big a fish is the UTG player? I really don't like 3betting him at all UNLESS he'll call with lots of worse Ax hands (people who call 3bets with worse than AJo are pretty rare).
 
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BlueNowhere

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Leave table button at top right is optimal line imo.
 
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doomasiggy

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Just how big a fish is the UTG player? I really don't like 3betting him at all UNLESS he'll call with lots of worse Ax hands (people who call 3bets with worse than AJo are pretty rare).

VPIP/Pfr=38/28 over slightly under 20k hands according to pokeredge. c-bet 86%; AF = 42%.

Admittedly I didn't have these stats at the time, this was just the general feeling I got from him after running into him on a couple of tables.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Without a f3bet stat or read I really don't like 3betting AJo at all here.
 
dwbrown7680

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Why flat the flop? Am I flatting the turn as well?

You're flatting because you're either ahead by a lot or behind by alot almost 100% of the time. When you raise you're pushing out KK/QQ/etc and getting calls/raises from AQ/AK etc.


Nah, I won the hand, he had QQ pre, I just felt that I played it badly because I felt that: 1) I shouldn't have been in the hand in the first place, 2) I felt like I should've just put him all in on the flop since once he called the flop he was probably going all in on the turn anyway. ?

You didn't play it optimally, but this guy is a pretty big fish if he had QQ here and took this weird wtf line in this hand.
 
bgomez89

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I'm sure wv told you what was up but this hand is messed up.

You really need to know if UTG will call with worse if you 3bet him after seeing his stats though I kind of don't mind it. If you're going to 3bet preflop though, make it bigger(at least 3x, never minraise).

When the bb cold 4bets here, you absolutely need to fold. That's really strong. I saw you mention that you thought he could have JJ-KK and you thought you could spike an A. See how this is bad thinking?

You're willing to call a bet when you know you're behind and just looking for 3 outs. Not only do you not have the odds for that but you realize that if an ace does hit that he isn't likely to pay you(think about if you have KK here and saw an ace, would you be willing to stack off?).

Postflop plays itself, i'm not going to fold ever. You're real problem was pre
 
dooydoo

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Just because utg opened 87o utg before doesnt mean he will call a 3b with 87o. If you flat AJ you guarantee he will still have the 87o and other junk in his range.

What you will end up doing here very often is isolating yourself vs better hands and folding out worse hands. Basically its wasting AJ and its a bluff. If you know he will call with KJ, 87o, A4s, etc then by all means 3b. Make it bigger though. Standard is about 3x but when you have a player who will call very wide to 3b with a wide range, make it bigger. Some players you can 3b to 10x. But to start make it 3x and work your way up BUT MAKE SURE YOU KNOW HE WILL CALL WITH WORSE.

I fold to the cold 4b and not think twice.

I would rather call the cbet because if he is bluffing, let him keep bluffing. If he has any Ax its better than ours. If we raise i think its too strong and a lot of hands might fold that would barrel the turn or pay us off on the turn if they pick up some kind of equity.
 
Deco

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Fold pre once the BB 4bets.
As played I flat the flop. Unless he bets tiny were going to get it in comfortably anyway and were miles ahead of QQ/KK anyway.

As for the 3bet pre I'd need stats on UTG to give a verdict.
 
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