€10 NLHE Full Ring: What to do with pocket 8s

Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
My first post to the hand analysis forum, here goes:-

party poker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Party-Poker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($9.05)
SB ($11.92)
BB ($3.34)
UTG ($7.25)
UTG+1 ($11.75)
MP1 ($9.85)
Cafeman31 (MP2) ($3.20)
CO ($20.42)

Preflop: Cafeman31 is MP2 with 8
club.gif
, 8
diamond.gif

1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.30, 1 fold, Cafeman31 raises $0.50, 4 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.15) 4
heart.gif
, Q
heart.gif
, 4
diamond.gif
(2 players)
UTG+1 checks

Should I have simply checked the reraise? Given that I didn't, what would you recommend post flop?
 
Vfranks

Vfranks

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Total posts
2,181
Awards
1
Chips
1
Why are you only paying with $3.20 on a .05/.10 table?
I think with your stack and a raise from UTG you should have folded or maybe just called, but I don't see why you would 3bet here? If you just call and tried to hit a set and fold on the flop if there is no 8, or you could try and make a continuation bet on the flop when it was checked to you, and check folded from there if no fold from villian or 8 lays.
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
Thanks for such a quick response Vfranks.
Why are you only paying with $3.20 on a .05/.10 table?
Because the hand before I'd taken a bad beat and hadn't restacked, my bad.

I think with your stack and a raise from UTG you should have folded or maybe just called, but I don't see why you would 3bet here? If you just call and tried to hit a set and fold on the flop if there is no 8, or you could try and make a continuation bet on the flop when it was checked to you, and check folded from there if no fold from villian or 8 lays.
Yes, so 3betting was a huge mistake here... hmmm
 
Vfranks

Vfranks

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jun 9, 2009
Total posts
2,181
Awards
1
Chips
1
I mean unless you had some read on the guy that he was opening light from utg, and you wanted to isolate him or something.. but only raising .20 more isn't gonna scare anyone away or get much more money in the pot. You should try and 3bet more like 2.5-4x his bet amount, so for me I'm reraising to .90-1.20 if I have a hand I want to 3bet with.
Since he was betting from UTG you should think he probably has a decent hand, unless you have a specific read, so you should have an even better hand if you want to re raise him.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
As played I pot bet this flop. If you're gonna 3-bet pre with this, make it like 80c-$1.10 and call a shove with your stack size. Otherwise fold if villain is a nit or flat call and hope to flop a set even though its a 10th of your stack with no guarantee of the 4 people behind you raising it. I don't like flat calling so for me I would either fold pre (reads dependent) or 3-bet to $1.10ish and jam any non A-K flop or call a preflop shove. I'm definitely betting this flop hoping villain has a missed AK/AJ and maybe getting them to fold 99/1010, obviously they're not folding AQ/KQ/JJ/KK/AA but I think with the flat call preflop we can discount AA/KK/QQ/maybe JJ. Only really AQ and JJ/1010/99 gonna show up here that you're behind
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
Preflop

So if I 3bet, then I need to do it higher, like €1, but then ONLY if I have a read on this guy? Looking back, I only have like 20 hands on him, so no I don't 3bet.

Next option, I check, hoping to what? Get a set on the flop? That's like 12%, so no value there (unless implied I guess). Or am I hoping that nothing shows up that could have me beat (A, K, Q, J, T or a 9) and then betting heavy? What next? Board came with a Q, so I am either hoping he hasn't hit it and bet heavy after he checks, like €1.2? Sorry for the newbie questions, I'm just trying to better understand how to play 8s. Thanks.

EDIT: I'm thinking that the third option of folding isn't really an option, or is it?
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
If you had a full stack, a good rule of thumb to go by for set mining is to call around a raise of around 5 % of their stack size for exampe UTG+1 has 11.75 so if he raised 50 and you had 10 dollars plus, then im sure this would be good but with the 3 dollars something its a bit risky for the small reward
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
If the villain hasn't played any hands in the last 20 and opens UTG+1 its a clear fold. There is no value setmining here so you need to be playing this hand strongly if you're going to play it and against 1 person only. 3-betting will make it difficult for anyone to come in behind you without QQ+/AK and the fact he flat called your min 3-bet shows weakness imo. I don't think flat calling 88 is going to be profitable here as there are too many scary flops that he can get us to fold. So we're faced with an underpaired board with 1 over. Calling a 3-bet preflop he could have hit with only AQ/KQ or JQ if he's really bad, discounting AA/KK/QQ as they would have probably 4-bet. I think pot betting the flop and shoving most turns is the best way for this hand to play out as you already have. Bet $1 flop and either take it down there or be called and shove the turn as you will have 1/2 your stack in already.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
If you had a full stack, a good rule of thumb to go by for set mining is to call around a raise of around 5 % of their stack size for exampe UTG+1 has 11.75 so if he raised 50 and you had 10 dollars plus, then im sure this would be good but with the 3 dollars something its a bit risky for the small reward
With $3 I think we should be looking to play it aggressively or not play it at all. Setmining is unprofitable due to his small stack, given the way it's played out we have a fairly safe flop for 88 so it's best to play it aggressivley and try and take it down there and then
 
C

cAPSLOCK

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Total posts
2,550
Chips
0
I'd likely flat pre flop, but if I 3bet I'd make it bigger, like .90ish. But just calling is good for when you flop something like this and it keeps you out of trouble when you're crushed. If you make a set it is somewhat hidden, so you can still build the pot.

Third option folding (pre flop?)? Yes. With this stack folding OR shoving here make some sense. But played with a normal sized stack it's a super easy call.

This is a kinda good flop for pocket eights. He has queens in his range if he's ABC, so I'd be prepared to fold, but I think you HAVE to bet this flop as played so far. Value plus fold equity = bet it. If he flats you... well hmmm.. time to rethink it hes lighting up queens, overpairs and overcards. If he check raises, it depends on if he likes doing that, or if hes fairly quiet. Time again to evaluate.

Remember to reload. Stack sizes mess up all your reason to 3bet this, and make the rest of the hand suck.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
I only said folding was reads dependent and i'm never folding 88 to a standard raise and would usually flat but i play with 100bb's. I'm not sure flatting can be the right play with 30bbs but with a safe flop like this we have to bet it.
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
With $3 I think we should be looking to play it aggressively or not play it at all. Setmining is unprofitable due to his small stack, given the way it's played out we have a fairly safe flop for 88 so it's best to play it aggressivley and try and take it down there and then

That is exactly my point you cant set mine with 3 dollars, and 3 betting to 1.20ish is pretty silly because you're pot committing yourself really, i would of took at stab at the pot theres lots of cards he could be holding that missed that flop.
 
eagle jim

eagle jim

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 10, 2008
Total posts
758
Chips
0
Agreed, set mining is out with a 30 bb stack. As played, pot the flop hoping to fold out his small pp (99,TT,JJ). He is never folding a Q in this spot or an overpair obv. However, with a full stack you should just call to set mine vs an ep opener depending on who is to act behind you. Does Party not allow you to auto rebuy to a full stack after a loss? If so you need to turn it on. Poker gods will punish you with AA and KK when you are not full stacked.....:D
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
ep opener
What does this mean?
Does Party not allow you to auto rebuy to a full stack after a loss? If so you need to turn it on. Poker gods will punish you with AA and KK when you are not full stacked.....:D
I play on pokerstars.fr (I'm English but live in france), and I've just notice that yes, the software does do auto rebuy! What level would you suggest? Rebuy to 10 once it gets below 8 for example?
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
What does this mean?

I play on pokerstars.fr (I'm English but live in France), and I've just notice that yes, the software does do auto rebuy! What level would you suggest? Rebuy to 10 once it gets below 8 for example?
ep raise= early position raiser
In my opinion always have top up to full stack when you lose any chips, that way you start each hand with 100bbs. Also why is it silly to get pot comitted here? We aren't just gonna sit on 30bbs and wait for aces. With the stack size, we are either folding this or playing it aggressively in the hopes of getting the money in on a safe flop and doubling up. Also, by playing it this way, you are showing more strength than what you have and can gain fold equity on wet/scary flops from hands such as 99-JJ.
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Total posts
557
Chips
0
i dont know how to correct it (hoping for someone better than me to jump in), but there is a lot of bad advice in this thread.

fold preflop.
 
Cafeman

Cafeman

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 12, 2011
Total posts
3,200
Chips
0
fold preflop.
Why? Because utg is betting, so without any other information we have to put him on a better hand than 88? Or is it because I'm super short stacked here? What if I started out with a €10 stack?
 
C

cAPSLOCK

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 22, 2008
Total posts
2,550
Chips
0
What level would you suggest? Rebuy to 10 once it gets below 8 for example?

That would be OK, or even just always rebuy to a full stack.

rssurfer54 said:
i dont know how to correct it (hoping for someone better than me to jump in), but there is a lot of bad advice in this thread.

fold preflop.

I think the title of the thread and the HH merit more than one answer.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
i dont know how to correct it (hoping for someone better than me to jump in), but there is a lot of bad advice in this thread.

fold preflop.
1) Elaborate on the first statement, explain why its bad?

2) Why fold?
 
acky100

acky100

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 22, 2010
Total posts
3,523
Chips
0
i would of folded knowing that i cant profitably set mine yeah. But sometiemes we do call and the flop is pretty nice for us, so there isnt just one way to play this and it isnt always an instant fold. Why is the advice so bad?
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
It's not, I don't think this a fold unless we know UTG+1 is a nit
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
With our stack size we should be folding or shoving preflop.

Calling is not an option. Most flops will have overcards which will put us in a tough spot, we don't have nearly enough implied odds for set mining.

Folding is OK as we are facing an UTG open.

Shoving is Ok as we are facing an UTG open from someone who is probably a bad player (judging by stack size) and we only have 30bbs.

I'm not much of a shortstacker myself but would probably lean towards folding. If villain knows anything about position and hand ranges UTG at full ring we are most likely flipping or crushed against his opening range let alone his calling range.
 
rssurfer54

rssurfer54

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2010
Total posts
557
Chips
0
With our stack size we should be folding or shoving preflop.

Calling is not an option. Most flops will have overcards which will put us in a tough spot, we don't have nearly enough implied odds for set mining.

Folding is OK as we are facing an UTG open.

Shoving is Ok as we are facing an UTG open from someone who is probably a bad player (judging by stack size) and we only have 30bbs.

I'm not much of a shortstacker myself but would probably lean towards folding. If villain knows anything about position and hand ranges UTG at full ring we are most likely flipping or crushed against his opening range let alone his calling range.

this is what i was hoping for haha.
 
ben_rhyno

ben_rhyno

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 4, 2010
Total posts
1,642
Chips
0
I already said that flatting was out of the question but I think shoving 30bbs might be a bit extreme here. I think a larger 3-bet makes it possible to easily get our stack in on most flops. I think given the min 3-bet if villain 4-bet we could fold with 27bbs left but given that he flat called we should be looking to play it aggressively on the flop. I think shoving/raising>>>>folding>>>>>calling
 
Top