€10 NLHE Full Ring: What could I do in this situation?

Thinker_145

Thinker_145

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iPoker - €0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4

BB: 100 BB (VPIP: 13.21, PFR: 7.55, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 53)
UTG: 25.6 BB (VPIP: 66.67, PFR: 33.33, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 3)
UTG+1: 109.7 BB (VPIP: 15.14, PFR: 10.35, 3Bet Preflop: 3.55, Hands: 1,756)
UTG+2: 171.9 BB (VPIP: 38.71, PFR: 16.13, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 31)
MP: 79.2 BB (VPIP: 25.00, PFR: 14.29, 3Bet Preflop: 7.14, Hands: 28)
Hero (MP+1): 170.6 BB
CO: 100 BB
BTN: 97.9 BB (VPIP: 13.21, PFR: 7.51, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 387)
SB: 118 BB (VPIP: 22.15, PFR: 18.35, 3Bet Preflop: 4.35, Hands: 161)

SB posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB, CO posts penalty blind 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 2.5 BB) Hero has 5:club: A:club:

fold, UTG+1 raises to 4 BB, fold, MP calls 4 BB, Hero calls 4 BB, CO calls 3 BB, fold, fold, fold

Flop: (17.5 BB, 4 players) 9:club: 8:diamond: 6:club:
UTG+1 bets 14 BB, fold, Hero raises to 59.5 BB, CO raises to 96 BB, fold, Hero calls 36.5 BB

Turn: (223.5 BB, 2 players) Q:heart:

River: (223.5 BB, 2 players) J:diamond:

Hero mucks 5:club: A:club: (High Card, Ace) (Pre 34%, Flop 32%, Turn 23%)
CO shows 8:spade: 8:heart: (Three of a Kind, Eights) (Pre 66%, Flop 68%, Turn 77%)
CO wins 208.6 BB

No info is available on the villain but I don't think it matters for this hand anyways.

I am not terribly upset over this hand as I know what I did was not something terribly wrong. But what I don't know is whether this is the right way to play the situation?

I could call that flop bet and fold the turn if someone bets big. However I don't believe that's a great way to play given the size of the flop bet, I have to raise or fold is my logic. AA and TT are ahead of me but I believe I have good equity against JJ-KK. Obviously I am behind 2 pair or better flopped hand.

So what I really want to know is how should one play in such situations? I mean I can't call a 4BB pre flop bet only to fold on that flop right? I am fairly certain if I had just called the villain would have raised anyways in which case I would be getting pot committed and would still be a shove or fold decision.

The amount of times that everyone is going to fold after my bet compensates for the fact that if I do get action it will mostly be against better hands. Is this the right logic?
 
Arjonius

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I am not terribly upset over this hand as I know what I did was not something terribly wrong. But what I don't know is whether this is the right way to play the situation?
There is seldom if ever a clearly right way to play a marginal hand against completely unknown opponents. The fact it's marginal basically means there are multiple options that aren't obviously better than each other.

Fwiw, I'd probably KISS and fold pre-.
 
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With 4 people still to act after me I don't think this really is the spot to call preflop.

For the most part I think a number of people call too much with Axs hands. You are inviting a difficult decision on the board when you don't have a flush draw and especially when you have a pair of A's.

This is great hand to lead out with in 6max in the cutoff -(I usually figure A2-A5s, but not A6s-A9s). In full ring in MP+1, I'm just not feeling it. too many people are calling with better A's there.
Fold pre-flop and save yourself some heartache later.

As played - yeah its fine I suppose. You semi-bluffed a reraise and then had too much equity to fold the hand after he shoved. You had outs to a gutshot and the nut flush, so its fine.

Though it is worth mentioning why you decided on that bet size, you essentially forced yourself into a situation where you could not fold if he shoved. If that was your intention then okay - but if thats your intention why not just shove rather than commit yourself with a pot that you can't even make a pot sized bet on the river given his stack size?
 
Thinker_145

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I have trouble folding a suited ace pre flop without 3 bet but I am not going to play the hand if I flop only one pair. I have no problem folding TPWK especially in a full ring game. What is in fact a problem with playing a suited ace is that when I flop the flush draw and someone bets into me then I don't know what to do and it can get expensive.

The reason for my bet on the flop is that an outright shove looks somewhat weak compared to a massive bet like the one I made. I know I am practically all in just that I feel there is a psychological difference between a shove and a large bet.

And to be honest I was really playing the UTG+1 I figured he had an over pair and wanted to scare him away. If he doesn't fold then I have a good hand against an over pair. As soon as the CO shoved I knew I am in trouble but it was too late.
 
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Ubercroz

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I have trouble folding a suited ace pre flop without 3 bet but I am not going to play the hand if I flop only one pair. I have no problem folding TPWK especially in a full ring game.

questions: how often do you need to connect for this strategy to be profitable?

If you are folding TPWK on the flop then you are likely giving up value, do you fold the flop or the turn? I think folding TP on the flop is a bad idea, since you may have the best hand.

What kinds of flops are you looking for? Are you just hoping to hit a flush draw or fold?

I'm having some trouble seeing what your plan is here and how it is going to make you money in the long run.

My guess is that this may be a long term losing play for you in that position - too many things can go wrong.
 
BearPlay

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In MP, and a raise before me, I'm an easy fold pre- with Axs.
 
el_magiciann

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I think the biggest mistake you did was that you pushed too hard for that draw and when you didn't hit it you're BR dissapear fast,,,,
 
Thinker_145

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questions: how often do you need to connect for this strategy to be profitable?

If you are folding TPWK on the flop then you are likely giving up value, do you fold the flop or the turn? I think folding TP on the flop is a bad idea, since you may have the best hand.

What kinds of flops are you looking for? Are you just hoping to hit a flush draw or fold?

I'm having some trouble seeing what your plan is here and how it is going to make you money in the long run.

My guess is that this may be a long term losing play for you in that position - too many things can go wrong.

This is a question I ask myself too whether my strategy with small suited aces is profitable or not. Mind you I do fold a suited ace in SB and BB. In all other positions when I call I could end up having position on everyone involved.

BTW one is always supposed to open raise with a suited ace right? Even UTG?

When I play a suited ace I am hoping to hit either a flush draw or 2 pair. I don't always go berserk with the nut flush draw, I even fold it at times on the turn. But when I have a gutshot, pair or 2 over cards to go with the flush draw is when I play it very aggressively.

Talking about TPWK how I play it depends on 3 factors. Position, opponent and bet size. I am not letting go of TP with just a small bet especially in position that's for sure.
 
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This is a question I ask myself too whether my strategy with small suited aces is profitable or not. Mind you I do fold a suited ace in SB and BB. In all other positions when I call I could end up having position on everyone involved.

BTW one is always supposed to open raise with a suited ace right? Even UTG?

When I play a suited ace I am hoping to hit either a flush draw or 2 pair. I don't always go berserk with the nut flush draw, I even fold it at times on the turn. But when I have a gutshot, pair or 2 over cards to go with the flush draw is when I play it very aggressively.

Talking about TPWK how I play it depends on 3 factors. Position, opponent and bet size. I am not letting go of TP with just a small bet especially in position that's for sure.

In 6-max I would not open any suited A UTG. I open ATs and up though. If you really really can't let go, trim it down to no more than A2-A5s and AT+.


Opening with AXs in the CU or BTN is prefectly fine, I don't necessarily like calling with it - on the button to a single raise you are probably fine though. I don't like doing it in the CU because I just don't like being out OOP if the BTN calls and there was a PFR.

Really really think about why you are betting and what your purpose is with those hands. At higher stakes (not even that much higher) it will hard to play like this. If you develop bad habits now you will be very challenged in the long run.
 
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fold pre ofc. Raise from utg and im at mp1...im cant call this
 
Thinker_145

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In 6-max I would not open any suited A UTG. I open ATs and up though. If you really really can't let go, trim it down to no more than A2-A5s and AT+.


Opening with AXs in the CU or BTN is prefectly fine, I don't necessarily like calling with it - on the button to a single raise you are probably fine though. I don't like doing it in the CU because I just don't like being out OOP if the BTN calls and there was a PFR.

Really really think about why you are betting and what your purpose is with those hands. At higher stakes (not even that much higher) it will hard to play like this. If you develop bad habits now you will be very challenged in the long run.

Thanks for your input I should cut out A6-9s from my range then.

I should probably start playing suited connectors more, I currently tend to avoid them in a full ring game.
 
Arjonius

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I have trouble folding a suited ace pre flop without 3 bet but I am not going to play the hand if I flop only one pair. I have no problem folding TPWK especially in a full ring game. What is in fact a problem with playing a suited ace is that when I flop the flush draw and someone bets into me then I don't know what to do and it can get expensive.
Flop big or drop is not a recipe for playing such hands profitably. It's not just about losing multiple streets of value when you flop draws. Losing the 1bb a very high % of the time when you limp and don't flop big isn't nothing when the best you can hope for is an average win rate that's a small fraction of 1bb.
 
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