$10 NLHE Full Ring: Value betting unimproved pocket 4's

thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

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$10 NL HE Full Ring: Value betting unimproved pocket 4's

Villain's stats 42/26. 3bets 6%. 0% (0/8) fold to cbet. No reads.


Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($13.39)
MP ($11.25)
CO ($12.44)
Button ($21.16)
SB ($18.23)
BB ($41.44)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4
heart.gif
, 4
club.gif

Hero bets $0.50, 4 folds, BB raises to $0.90, Hero calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.85) 7
club.gif
, 7
spade.gif
, J
spade.gif
(2 players)
BB bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.30, BB calls $0.90

Turn: ($4.45) 2
spade.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $2, BB calls $2

River: ($8.45) 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $8.45 | Rake: $0.56


Edit: This is obviously 6max not full ring... just pointing that out in case anyone doesn't notice.
 
Last edited:
KardKlub

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Your hand has apparant show down value on the flop. It's a call for me hoping for a cheap showdown.

What are you repping with your flop raise? Quads? A full house? An over pair to a dry board? The higher levels you play you'll get punished for not repping a hand. Well I would punish you.
 
thepokerkid123

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I wasn't repping anything on the flop... it was a value raise.

The turn was kinda spewy I think, at the time I wasn't sure if I should bet or check and thinking it's rarely a mistake to bet, I bet. In hindsight I think checking was better.
 
slycbnew

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I get what you're saying, that Villain's a loose 3bettor and is going to show up w worse than 44 a good chunk of the time - still, I'm not keen on defending pf w this hand, and if I'm defending i'm more likely to 4bet this than call, esp since that he doesn't fold to cbets (do you have a stat for fold to flop raises?).

If we're raising the flop for value, I'd prefer a bigger flop raise, $1.80ish+, he only has to call $0.90 for $3.50ish and a guy like this will float overcards for that price.

If the flop raise is for value, the turn doesn't change anything and we should bet imo. If we're betting the turn, I'd prefer a bigger bet, something over 1/2 pot, $2.50ish, maybe larger (I think that if the flop raise is bigger, we can definitely get away w a turn bet that is just over 1/2 psb) - that ought to be enough to fold out overcards while still not costing us too much if he has a stronger hand.

Obv check behind on the river.
 
thepokerkid123

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Pre-flop I think the only options were calling or raising since it's 40c with $13 stacks and I've got position. Since it's a 3bet from the BB, I'm not too eager to 4bet light so I think calling was a good option.

I wasn't planning to put many chips in post flop without hitting my set, unless I thought I could steal the pot. I think his range (pre-flop) is at least AJ+ TT+ so folding is going to be my best option most of the time.
He bet less than 1/4 pot which just looked so weak that I'll raise ATC, unless he 3bets me I'm putting him on AK/AQ. My raise is for value, and I agree that I should have made it bigger.

When he calls the flop he has a lot of overcards with flush draw type hands in his range, but that he hasn't folded to a cbet yet means that he may well have something like AQo. The flush draw completing means there are fewer hands that I beat and I think checking the turn and check/calling the river may have been better. I don't think I'm getting called by worse on the turn.
 
K

kAAzENBRE

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;(;(

i think that the best thing to do at this point is to fold its a small chance that he dosent have anything and does 4s dont stand any chance against higher pars so i say fold!
 
KardKlub

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I wasn't repping anything on the flop... it was a value raise.

hmmmmmmmmm.

On another topic, you shouldn't 4 bet 44 to a 3 bet. Calling is always best to raising. 4betting with a hand like 67,45 would be better as it gives you at best 6 outs instead of the 2 outs for the 4,s. Just myopinion
 
slycbnew

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hmmmmmmmmm.

On another topic, you shouldn't 4 bet 44 to a 3 bet. Calling is always best to raising. 4betting with a hand like 67,45 would be better as it gives you at best 6 outs instead of the 2 outs for the 4,s. Just myopinion

I don't think I've ever 4bet 44 (I don't do a ton of light 4betting) - I just think calling a 3bet w them is actually worse than 4betting them (obviously I think folding them to a 3bet is the best play), it's such a terrible hand postflop...

On the other hand, I missed that the 3bet here is a min 3bet, and the price is fine for setmining. I so rarely see min 3bets, though, that I have no clue what they mean. Do you guys have a feel for it? Is it a strong hand that doesn't want to scare Hero away? Can it have middle pp's? Is it silly to figure out what it's supposed to mean cuz Villain likely is a clueless poker player and doesn't know how to 3bet?
 
Stu_Ungar

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Id expect to see 99 or TT on the river or AK,AQ

But AK/Q will fold to a bet and 99/TT will call any bet so you cannot bet the river for value
 
WVHillbilly

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I'd have liked it if you had shoved the river! At least that way there is a chance he folds all his pocket pairs you're behind. With your raise flop / bet turn line you let him off easy with the check behind on the river. I mean you're hand is almost never good here so turning it into a bluff is fine when he checks the river imo.
 
burntrider

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Feels like he may have either a big A, or a weak J.

I agree with slycbnew's advice about making your pre-flop raise a bit bigger.
 
H

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Oh man good thing this isn't a hand analysis cause I disagree with quite a few of your plays. At the end he's not checking a J, and chances are not checking any pocket pair. But still, he's not calling A hi unless he's donking, and he's not folding any higher PPs in all likelihood, so you check.
 
WVHillbilly

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Oh man good thing this isn't a hand analysis cause I disagree with quite a few of your plays. At the end he's not checking a J, and chances are not checking any pocket pair. But still, he's not calling A hi unless he's donking, and he's not folding any higher PPs in all likelihood, so you check.

Actually this is a hand analysis.

I actually think he has to see our range as incredibly strong and may well fold pairs under JJ that beat us.

Look at it from his perspective:
We raised UTG.
We raised his flop donk.
We bet the turn when he checked.
If we shove the river what's our most likely hand?
 
H

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Excuse me, by hand analysis I meant he wasn't requesting our analysis on his preflop play. Personally, 5x BB preflop with 44 and then continued betting against overcards isn't exactly the way I want to go. And if he hasn't folded 55-1010 up to now, he certainly doesn't do it when an innocuous third seven hits. And if he has above QQ and is trying to check to get us to bluff, we likely get stacked
 
WVHillbilly

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Excuse me, by hand analysis I meant he wasn't requesting our analysis on his preflop play. Personally, 5x BB preflop with 44 and then continued betting against overcards isn't exactly the way I want to go. And if he hasn't folded 55-1010 up to now, he certainly doesn't do it when an innocuous third seven hits. And if he has above QQ and is trying to check to get us to bluff, we likely get stacked

We'll just have to disagree here. I think he folds a LOT more often than he calls with pairs under a Jack to a shove on the river (basically it's a full pot bet). I think a lot of the middle pair type hands he has play the hand exactly like this because they don't think we'll ever shove the river as a bluff so they call the turn bet planning to fold to further action. When we check the river we play right into their hands.
 
thepokerkid123

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5x BB preflop with 44

5bb because of my position. Even if not for concealing my hand, I like 5xbb with 44 because it sets me up to stack someone if I hit my set, otherwise I can usually cbet/fold and rarely commit large amounts of chips post-flop. 5xbb also maximises my fold equity when I'm going to be very happy taking down the blinds with pocket 4's.

then continued betting against overcards isn't exactly the way I want to go.
On the flop the sevens are paired which helps my hand a lot, and the J is a little dangerous but the fact that there is a flush draw and a gutshot straight draw out there as well, plus a lot of potential for overcards with the borad only being J high, and the fact that my opponent hadn't folded to a single cbet yet, I think pocket 4's are still ahead of his range even after he calls on the flop.

Betting the turn I'm still not sure about, it only really makes sense if I'm trying to charge a draw or looking for fold equity.


Actually this is a hand analysis.

I actually think he has to see our range as incredibly strong and may well fold pairs under JJ that beat us.

Look at it from his perspective:
We raised UTG.
We raised his flop donk.
We bet the turn when he checked.
If we shove the river what's our most likely hand?


I checked behind thinking that he doesn't fold 55+, villain by all information available appears to be a great calling station betting him off a full house isn't something I'm brave enough to do. Besides, my 44 had showdown value, imo.
 
WVHillbilly

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Betting the turn I'm still not sure about, it only really makes sense if I'm trying to charge a draw or looking for fold equity or I plan on shoving the river and taking villain's chips because he just can't call with 88 here.

fyp :)

Oh yeah and I'm not saying shoving rivers to get people to fold FHs is in general a great strategy but I just think this hand sets itself up quite nicely for it. Of course I don't play 10nl so maybe shoving would just be spew because no one ever folds a FH or he'll always "put you on AK" but if that's the case betting the turn was pretty bad.
 
WVHillbilly

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Here is the hand (hypothetical) from villain's viewpoint.
Are you calling the river in his shoes?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($13.39)
MP ($11.25)
CO ($12.44)
Button ($21.16)
SB ($18.23)
Hero BB ($41.44)

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9
heart.gif
, 9
club.gif

UTG bets $0.50, 4 folds, Hero raises to $0.90, UTG calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.85) 7
club.gif
, 7
spade.gif
, J
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero bets $0.40, UTG raises to $1.30, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($4.45) 2
spade.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $2, Hero calls $2

River: ($8.45) 7
diamond.gif
(2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $9.19 (All In)

Hero???
 
KardKlub

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hero is silly he should never have led out on the flop with his 99. a c/jam would have been better. Villains 3 bet pre is just to weak to hold overs and and decent J.

Finish the hand off now seen as were oop.


As played hero should jam, why call the turn bet if he wasn't going to jam when no overs appeared on the river.

:0p
 
slycbnew

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hero is silly he should never have led out on the flop with his 99. a c/jam would have been better. Villains 3 bet pre is just to weak to hold overs and and decent J.

Finish the hand off now seen as were oop.


As played hero should jam, why call the turn bet if he wasn't going to jam when no overs appeared on the river.

:0p

As played, hero can't jam, all he can do is call villain's all in.
 
slycbnew

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yes eagle eye:embarasse

Sorry, dont' mean to be a smartass :D - I assumed you meant that Hero should've shoved the river, which is pretty much the same play WV's recommending for Villain?
 
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