$10 NLHE Full Ring: TT as a bluff catcher.. I think.

$10 NLHE Full Ring: TT as a bluff catcher.. I think.

pokerstars - $0.10 NL (9 max) - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG+1: $4.78
Hero (MP): $10.56
MP+1: $10.55
LP: $10.00
CO: $4.45
BTN: $10.83
SB: $10.26
BB: $10.38
UTG: $10.97

SB posts SB $0.05, BB posts BB $0.10

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero has Th Td

fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.30, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to $0.50, fold, fold, Hero calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.15, 2 players) 5c 6c 2s
Hero checks, BTN bets $1.00, Hero calls $1.00

Turn: ($3.15, 2 players) 3s
Hero checks, BTN bets $5.00,

Hero??

Serious wtf moment.

was thinking after the 3 bet and the flop bet if he bets this turn he's got to be bluffing.. or turning his hand into a bluff, but after that massive overbet I can't blow him off it..

and his 3betting range shouldn't have anything to do with this board except for OP and AK, AQ etc that bricked.. or maybe thats just my thinking.. I dunno.

opinions?

Stats/reads???

33/11/1.3, no reads, s'why I folded.

Well when he min 3bets he's probably got the nuts or close. You can call to set mine but you should be folding the flop.

you dont think he spews off enough to warrant calling a flop bet?

earlier someone did the same thing, i flopped top set.. they jammed the flop for like 4x pot and showed 87o

and what does he think he's doing here overbetting the pot so much with aces? it can't be a value-bet so what is it?

Sure it can. If you're range for flatting the 3bet is mostly pairs you can't profitably get in preflop you have tons of overpairs on a low board like that. Some people have a real problem folding overpairs.

As to your earlier hand, what type of villain was that against? Stack size/stats/reads/positions/etc.?

Yeah against a thinking player, but he was a super fish..

and which hand? on a different thread?

WVHillbilly said:

Sure it can. If you're range for flatting the 3bet is mostly pairs you can't profitably get in preflop you have tons of overpairs on a low board like that. Some people have a real problem folding overpairs.

As to your earlier hand, what type of villain was that against? Stack size/stats/reads/positions/etc.?

Click to expand...

This earlier hand.

Campbell92 said:

you dont think he spews off enough to warrant calling a flop bet?

earlier someone did the same thing, i flopped top set.. they jammed the flop for like 4x pot and showed 87o

and what does he think he's doing here overbetting the pot so much with aces? it can't be a value-bet so what is it?

Click to expand...

100bbs, he was OOP and limp called my 4x raise.

Led into me on the flop, so I let him hang himself. Rope-a-dope.

Cant remember the exact stats, but I was at a super loose table, was 10+ tabling so hand't paid much attention to him till then.

WVHillbilly said:

Well when he min 3bets he's probably got the nuts or close. You can call to set mine but you should be folding the flop.

Click to expand...

I dunno; min 3 bets at 10nl can also mean 77 or A9suited. I probably call flop, check/fold turn until I get more reads. If I'm not cascading tables and can watch him I'd look for a repetition of min 3 bets/overbet pots.

Without a very clear reason to think that this guy could be messing around here this is just a fold for me. If you can imagine a case where you make a hero call and still get owned it's probably a good idea to fold. For instance if this guy has JJ.

yeah thats what I thought, figured I can't ever make him fold and if he has AA etc then I'm finished.

I've seen guys do the same thing with 99, 88, 77 even AQ suited in that spot. But I'm inclined to fold and get him next time.

I don't think this is a bluff at 10NL often enough to make this anything but a fold.

I think I would raise the c-bet on the flop. The flop really doesnt hit much of his preflop raising range and I think your ahead most of the time. Is this wrong?


I see everyone says fold here, are we thinking opp. probably has JJ/QQ/KK/AA? Because I don't think he has hit a straight after that preflop raise. Is my thought process off?

Raising flop is horrible.

why? I'm sure you are right but I don't understand the thought process. You have his range beat besides premium pocket pairs.


Are you playing the pocket tens purely to set mine? You are ahead of AK/AQ/AJ/KQ which he could easily have along with getting value from him if he has a flush draw

Not to mention he is on the button and could be 3-betting wide. I guess he may have hit a set, is that the worry here? But he could also have 77/88/99 as well. Not sure, my thinking is obviously off but that what I see.

The reason raising the flop cbet is bad is the reason you're doing it.

Can we raise here for value (do worse hands call)? Unlikely
Can we raise here as a bluff (do better hands fold)? No.

Since neither of those 2 are true, there is no reason to raise since you're only getting called/reraised by better or folding worse.

Raising flop doesn't achieve anything, it folds out his bluffs with AQ,AK, etc etc.

Seems like an easy fold on the turn.

Hmm I understand the point completely....but I do think that a good percentage of players with AK/AQ/etc would call a reraise since he already c-bet the flop and I think many won't be able to fold that. I also think that players will overpairs smaller than 10 10 would call reraises. Someone with pocket 9's will most definitely call a reraise.


So, once again, I realize I am probably wrong on what the optimal move is here (im much less experienced), however I disagree on the fact that there are definitely some worse hands that will call.


But, I do get your point and the fact that the majority of worse hands may not call. I guess I just think that on these low stakes, there are so many players that will call purely with two over cards.

At these stakes, this fishy little min-3-bet pre is usually not a bluff and often not even AK and many players will not fire AK unimproved on the flop and if they do they will usually fold to a reraise.

So the hands that we have beat but have some semblance of equity (6 outs + backdoor straight draw) can be heavily discounted from his range because of preflop action + flop action

Smaller pairs than TT can be heavily discounted because few people at these stakes are going to 3-bet them and if we raise they will likely fold.

So you're left with the majority of his range which will be bigger pairs that are never folding to a raise.

Some good players would push with AA KK in this spot to make it look like a bluff(but would a good player minraise with AA,KK,) and get called by a mid pocket or even get tighter opponents set out of the pot. But I may wait for better spots if you havent seen him playing hands in a wrong way.

4bet PF instead?

It seems like there is an aspect of this hand that isn't getting touched upon. Could he have done something different PF to get better info? He loses a total of $1.20 by flatting then check/calling only to fold the turn. What happens when he 4bets to $1.50 PF? The same amount of money is thrown in so the risk is the same. Against a fish, as was his read, it seems like 4betting PF and folding to a shove is better than flatting and....hoping for a 10 on the flop???

Even if he gets called on the 4bet his hand has more strength image wise and with that board is the best hand against most of the guy's 4bet call range. I don't see too many people not shoving with anything better than 10's and it should fold out the low PP's and A5+. I do see the possibility for getting trapped by KK+ by the 4bet call, but if he does that then good for him.

Even just calling the min 3bet OOP seems questionable other than for the fact that hero thinks the guy is a fish.

I'm still fairly new on the scene so I don't have a problem with someone telling me I'm completely wrong here. Its just another route that I think could have been taken.

I also apologize for not addressing the overbet on the turn, but that'd be autofold for me with little info. It kind of looks like more of a AcQc type of hand where he's willing to bet his two overs with the flush draw against whatever you might have.
Just remember the line for the future when you flop a set against him on the flop.