$10 NLHE Full Ring: tptk against multiple opponents

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leedsfc08

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$10 NL HE Full Ring: tptk against multiple opponents

this hand confused the absolute hell out of me. just sat down at this table. no reads as i was multi tabling although the first hand i sat down to was jacks utg. ended up folding preflop after my utg raise was called twice and shoved over the top of. (10s & 2s went all in preflop) so after watching that carnage go down when i had the best hand preflop but folded the play seems to be quite wild.

Starting Hand #960537848
Start time of hand: 10 Sep 2009 15:29:14
Last Hand #960535915
Game Type: HOLD'EM
Limit Type: NO LIMIT
Table Type: RING
Money Type: real money
Blinds are now $0.05/$0.10
Seat 1: kems51 - $5.90
Seat 2: shawsie - $11.72
Seat 3: Hoff7 - $5.40
Seat 4: WinSchutten - $10
Seat 5: mattdust - $6.16
Seat 6: ryan1298 - $12.59
Seat 7: hero - $8.85
Seat 8: djmyk - $4.18
Seat 9: vaddi - $4
Seat 10: losdelrio - $12.68


Moving Button to seat 7
djmyk posts small blind ($0.05)
vaddi posts big blind ($0.10)
---------------- PREFLOP ----------------
[Ks As] to hero
losdelrio calls $0.10
kems51 folds
shawsie folds
Hoff7 calls $0.10
mattdust folds
ryan1298 calls $0.10
hero raises to $0.50
djmyk folds
djmyk drums his fingers.
vaddi folds
losdelrio calls $0.50
Hoff7 calls $0.50
ryan1298 calls $0.50
---------------- FLOP ----------------
[7s Kd 3h] ($2.15)
losdelrio bets $0.50
Hoff7 calls $0.50
ryan1298 folds
hero raises to $2
losdelrio calls $2
Hoff7 raises to $4.90 (all-in)
hero ?????
 
mattzan

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trips 7? trips 3? very hard... ... but I would call...
 
S93

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I raise more prf, like .70 but my standard raise is 4x+1per limper.

Flop is a snap call, villain is half stacked with a huge range, your beat by 33,77,KK,K7,K3 and 37 but his range is probably way wider then that like 88+,KT+ and a few random spazes.

I like the flop re-raise size from u aswell since it makes it so easy to stack of on later streets.

Also auto reload so u allways have 100BBs ;).
 
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leedsfc08

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Remembering there is still one to act after us on the flop (which kinda confused the hell out of me, on a flop like that i didnt expect so much action)
 
Double-A

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I'm not going to respond very well to this... 1) because I have a sinus infection (can't think) 2) I rarely address the point of the matter at hand preferring instead to go off on some tangent about myself like I'm doing now...

The hand... it's a tough spot... I say fold. Lot's of info on the opposition is needed for me to want to go broke w/ TPTK and I'm just not getting that here.

I'm not getting in these spots as often anymore... I'm probably limping behind pre-flop and schmoove calling on that flop (unraised pot).

I like limping behind w/ AKs because none of the limpers are going away when you raise and you're probably going to be playing a raised pot, multi-way, with no better than TPTK. Plus, if we are going multi-way, then I want as many as I can get for odds on my nut flush/bway straight draws (when they come up).

Long story short, you can fold here and the fold woulda been less of a big deal if you would've limped behind pre-flop.
 
S93

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The hand... it's a tough spot... I say fold. Lot's of info on the opposition is needed for me to want to go broke w/ TPTK and I'm just not getting that here.
Where not going broke here villain is a halfstacker at 10nl thats alot of info in it self since i dont think if ever seen a good halfstacking micro player(or a halfstacker in general)


I'm not getting in these spots as often anymore... I'm probably limping behind pre-flop and schmoove calling on that flop (unraised pot).

I like limping behind w/ AKs because none of the limpers are going away when you raise and you're probably going to be playing a raised pot, multi-way, with no better than TPTK. Plus, if we are going multi-way, then I want as many as I can get for odds on my nut flush/bway straight draws (when they come up).

Long story short, you can fold here and the fold woulda been less of a big deal if you would've limped behind pre-flop.
Raising prf isnt just to get villains to fold but for value.
We probably have the best hand here or are flipping against a small PP so by raising prf where geting value from Ax,Kx and setting us up for a cbet to fold out the PPs the wast majority of times when they miss there set.
Limping behind with AK is wasting alot of equity since AK is so strong but like u say usualy only makes TPTK witch means we want the pot to stack ratio down so we can comfortable stack post flop with only TPTK(like hero did in this hand).
So yeah why i think limping behind with AK is bad:
1. Where gonna miss the flop alot.
2. We lose a chance to get value from stuff like A9 and KT.
3. Pot to stack ratio is gonna be bad for us so we wont be happy to stack TPTK
 
Double-A

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Where not going broke here villain is a halfstacker at 10nl thats alot of info in it self since i dont think if ever seen a good halfstacking micro player(or a halfstacker in general)

I read it as villain was betting $4.90 into us and we have $6 left. I guess I should have said that I didn't have enough info to get more than 80% of my chips in with TPTK. Especially not with one other player to act.

There are four or five players half-stacking at this table. Chances are they are all bad players. Bad players still flop sets w/ small pairs and weird ass two-pair combos with hands that you never see coming. I try not to be shoving chips into the pot w/ TPTK when that happens. From what little statistical research I've done on my game, I've made most of my money from people over playing their hands in just these type of situations.
 
Double-A

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Raising prf isnt just to get villains to fold but for value.
We probably have the best hand here or are flipping against a small PP so by raising prf where geting value from Ax,Kx and setting us up for a cbet to fold out the PPs the wast majority of times when they miss there set.
Limping behind with AK is wasting alot of equity since AK is so strong but like u say usualy only makes TPTK witch means we want the pot to stack ratio down so we can comfortable stack post flop with only TPTK(like hero did in this hand).
So yeah why i think limping behind with AK is bad:
1. Where gonna miss the flop alot.
2. We lose a chance to get value from stuff like A9 and KT.
3. Pot to stack ratio is gonna be bad for us so we wont be happy to stack TPTK

I don't think squeezing value out of the possible Ax and Kx hands is worth it. Raising also folds the players behind us who would've limped with just those hands while getting calls from hands that we are behind.

My other problem is that I don't want to stack w/ TPTK.

Make it one or two limpers and I like the raise pre-flop. Heads up on that flop I COULD see playing for stacks IF I knew my opponent was capable of moving in with worse. That's not the case.

We've got a way to fold and I think we should take it.
 
ericgarner118

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I don't think squeezing value out of the possible Ax and Kx hands is worth it. Raising also folds the players behind us who would've limped with just those hands while getting calls from hands that we are behind.

My other problem is that I don't want to stack w/ TPTK.

Make it one or two limpers and I like the raise pre-flop. Heads up on that flop I COULD see playing for stacks IF I knew my opponent was capable of moving in with worse. That's not the case.

We've got a way to fold and I think we should take it.


I was under the impression that raising for value, controlling SPR, and pushing out the small pocket pairs was the whole reason for raising AK preflop. We are only behind two hands here, AA and KK. Both of which aren't going to call, they'd 3-bet shove most likely.

Being a short stake in the micros he would easily stack off with worse then TPTK. I can, and have, seen short stakers in very similiar situations push with QQ, KQ, I've even seen some push with just a back door flush with middle pair.

I'm sure there is a fold there, but I don't think I would want to find it.
 
slycbnew

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It's a really bad idea to stack TPTK against villains who will never stack w worse than TPTK.

It's a really bad idea to NOT stack TPTK against villains who will regularly stack w worse than TPTK.

I agree w sindri, halfstackers generally will frequently stack w worse than TPTK, often enough that folding here is bad without other reads on villain.
 
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leedsfc08

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It's a really bad idea to stack TPTK against villains who will never stack w worse than TPTK.

It's a really bad idea to NOT stack TPTK against villains who will regularly stack w worse than TPTK.

I agree w sindri, halfstackers generally will frequently stack w worse than TPTK, often enough that folding here is bad without other reads on villain.

that was basically my reasoning.
i ended up shoving over the top to stop Losdelrio from coming in with a weaker king and maybe sucking out with a 2pair on 4th or 5th street. Which in hindsight probably wasn't a good idea as his hand was so under represented he could have had absolutely anything. (which he did). he snap called with Kc3c for 2 pair. (half stacked villian showed k10). I got pretty lucky in the end. river came a 7.
 
slycbnew

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that was basically my reasoning.
i ended up shoving over the top to stop Losdelrio from coming in with a weaker king and maybe sucking out with a 2pair on 4th or 5th street. Which in hindsight probably wasn't a good idea as his hand was so under represented he could have had absolutely anything. (which he did). he snap called with Kc3c for 2 pair. (half stacked villian showed k10). I got pretty lucky in the end. river came a 7.

You're lucky to have a player bad enough to limp K3s utg! Half stacked villain showing up w TPGK isn't a surprise at all.

Note, though, that by making your pf raise only $0.50, he only had to call $0.40 into a $0.95 pot, good enough odds that his call makes sense. As sindri pointed out, the raise needs to be bigger, 7x ($0.70) makes sense.

Oh, and use a hand converter - it's not nice to talk about people when their screen names are here, use positions instead so we can really blast 'em :D . Here's a link to the stoxpoker hand converter:

http://www.stoxpoker.com/hand_history_converter/
 
Double-A

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I was under the impression that raising for value, controlling SPR, and pushing out the small pocket pairs was the whole reason for raising AK preflop. We are only behind two hands here, AA and KK. Both of which aren't going to call, they'd 3-bet shove most likely.

Being a short stake in the micros he would easily stack off with worse then TPTK. I can, and have, seen short stakers in very similiar situations push with QQ, KQ, I've even seen some push with just a back door flush with middle pair.

I'm sure there is a fold there, but I don't think I would want to find it.

I see your point. I'm just willing to give up some value pre-flop to avoid tough decisions and possibly big mistakes on later streets.

Sure, micro players push w/ all kinds of trash. They also push with sets and other hands that beat top pair. If the guy is "that bad" then we'll get the money sooner or later anyway. No need to go crazy with TPTK in a multi-way pot.
 
ericgarner118

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I see what your saying double-A. Post flop play of a lot of these micro stakes players is horrible (Mind isn't much better :D) and I'm sure you can get alot of value out of their mistakes post flop.
 
Makwa

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There are four or five players half-stacking at this table. Chances are they are all bad players. Bad players still flop sets w/ small pairs and weird ass two-pair combos with hands that you never see coming. I try not to be shoving chips into the pot w/ TPTK when that happens. From what little statistical research I've done on my game, I've made most of my money from people over playing their hands in just these type of situations.

I see your point. I'm just willing to give up some value pre-flop to avoid tough decisions and possibly big mistakes on later streets.

Sure, micro players push w/ all kinds of trash. They also push with sets and other hands that beat top pair. If the guy is "that bad" then we'll get the money sooner or later anyway. No need to go crazy with TPTK in a multi-way pot.

Small hand small pot (TPTK is not a huge hand, and gets tiny multiway) ... you are surrounded by shovers and stackers... multiway no way Jose... I like your thinking here Double-A...
 
Deco

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Small hand small pot (TPTK is not a huge hand, and gets tiny multiway) ... you are surrounded by shovers and stackers... multiway no way Jose... I like your thinking here Double-A...

Our stack to pot ratio with this guy is 2.5.
He's short stacked and inevitably a terrible player.

Not getting it in here is criminal.
 
BelgoSuisse

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Small hand small pot (TPTK is not a huge hand, and gets tiny multiway) ... you are surrounded by shovers and stackers... multiway no way Jose... I like your thinking here Double-A...

I really really hope this is ironic.
 
O

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Does the presence of the $12 stacked guy behind us, who smooth called the $2 raise, change things a bit, b/c with all the talk about half stackers sucking, which they do, nobodies said anything about the stack behind us, we can't shove over the shorties raise b/c then we could be getting called by the guy who's still to act, who i think we're going to be behind too if he calls or shoves over the top.

It's a dry board so for him to flat call our raise just looks like he's trying to milk some more money from the other guy.

If we were just against the halfstacker here then its a no-brainer but with the full stack to act it's quite a shitty spot imo.
 
slycbnew

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Well, leeds addressed it - he shoved w the intent of preventing utg from coming along for the ride.

Forget for the time being that utg actually calls here - utg donk bet the flop and flats behind Hero's raise - what range are we assigning him? Worse K's are definitely in his range (though it'll be a bit of a surprise for all three of us to show up w a K), are two pair, sets, and AA the majority of his range given the donk/flat action so far (not seeing a draw here)?

I agree that utg's presence in the hand complicates things, but think that given the action so far, shove > fold > call behind the half stack shove - but I mostly play 6max, so I could be making a game-type mistake, and I already think half stack has a K so having utg show up w the case K would be a little surprising.
 
BLieve

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I am going to give my input before reading what everyone else wrote. Hoff in MP limped and called a raise with good odds PF. Then flat called a weak bet and shoved when you raised...that is super slow play for a monster. Has to be Aces or a set.

Do pot odds justify a call? Maybe he has QQ or TT but you need to have him beat at least 35% of the time to justify the odds I believe since you are putting in 2.90 to win about 8.50. I think you have to either fold (very tough) or raise to keep losdelrio from staying in with pot odds.

But also consider losdelrio open limped and called PF with no odds. Then open bet the flop and called a raise already. He is definitely calling if you call and who knows maybe you are holding the 3rd best hand.

While easier said than done I think folding is the way to go. Since delrio calls you will still have to deal with his stack which is larger than yours.
 
BLieve

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I raise more prf, like .70 but my standard raise is 4x+1per limper.

Flop is a snap call, villain is half stacked with a huge range, your beat by 33,77,KK,K7,K3 and 37 but his range is probably way wider then that like 88+,KT+ and a few random spazes.

I like the flop re-raise size from u aswell since it makes it so easy to stack of on later streets.

Also auto reload so u allways have 100BBs ;).
How is this a snap call? Hero has no reads. You have to pay about $3 to win about $8.50 if my math is right. But then you also have to deal with delrio who now has great odds to call.
 
BLieve

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I'm not going to respond very well to this... 1) because I have a sinus infection (can't think) 2) I rarely address the point of the matter at hand preferring instead to go off on some tangent about myself like I'm doing now...

The hand... it's a tough spot... I say fold. Lot's of info on the opposition is needed for me to want to go broke w/ TPTK and I'm just not getting that here.

I'm not getting in these spots as often anymore... I'm probably limping behind pre-flop and schmoove calling on that flop (unraised pot).

I like limping behind w/ AKs because none of the limpers are going away when you raise and you're probably going to be playing a raised pot, multi-way, with no better than TPTK. Plus, if we are going multi-way, then I want as many as I can get for odds on my nut flush/bway straight draws (when they come up).

Long story short, you can fold here and the fold woulda been less of a big deal if you would've limped behind pre-flop.
I agree no need to go broke with TPTK but limping behind with AK??? Getting beat by J7 two pair is no fun my friend. The PF raise was perfect for 10NL 5x bb
 
BLieve

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It's a really bad idea to stack TPTK against villains who will never stack w worse than TPTK.

It's a really bad idea to NOT stack TPTK against villains who will regularly stack w worse than TPTK.

I agree w sindri, halfstackers generally will frequently stack w worse than TPTK, often enough that folding here is bad without other reads on villain.
Ok I did not consider the regularly stack with worse than TPTK part this is very true. But what worries me the most is that the villain waited for money to get into the pot and then shoved. Although it was poor play on the villains part if he had AA or KK, that is still a very strong move that we have to respect it.

This is a call if you know for a fact delrio is folding but once again it is not heads up.
 
Double-A

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I agree no need to go broke with TPTK but limping behind with AK??? Getting beat by J7 two pair is no fun my friend.

You're right, that isn't any fun. Sure, I'm gonna get beat sometimes. But, it isn't gonna be for much...

This is probably a topic for another thread because it doesn't really address the OP's problem or the hand as played. If it generates more conversation then maybe I'll stop being so lazy...

Raising w/ AK is pretty standard. If it was a tournament, SnG, or short handed game then I'm raising nearly 100%. One or two limpers? Again, raise. It's not any of those, it's a full ring micro stakes cash game and you're facing multiple limpers. There just aren't many hands that I'm going to raise with there. I'm not so concerned with giving up some equity pre-flop as I am with getting my stack in (with much the best of it) after the flop or facing a tough decision.

Limping pre-flop (in this type of situation) sacrifices equity to make your decisions easier on later streets. That doesn't make much sense unless you're talking about big bet cash games.

It's certainly debatable, but I'm going to limp with the AKs and when I flop two pair or better, I'm going to get action. When I flop top pair and people get crazy then I've got an easier way out.
 
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