$10 NLHE Full Ring: Top pair with second best kicker

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A9ofHearts

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I'm sure this is pretty easy for most of you, but being that I'm a profitable tournament player, but a losing cash game player I would like a little advice.

$0.05/$0.10 NLHE on Bovada
This was played on Friday afternoon

Starting stacks were as follows
BB (ME) $10
UTG $16.91
UTG+2 $16.91
UTG+3 $3
UTG+4 $9.35
Dealer $7.74
SB $27.51

I'm dealt :kd4: :qs4:

UTG Raises $0.40
UTG+2 Folds
UTG+3 Calls $0.40
UTG+4 Folds
Dealer Calls $0.40
SB Folds
BB (ME) Calls $0.30

Flop :3s4: :qd4: :5c4:

BB (ME) Checks
UTG Bets $1.02
UTG+1 Folds
UTG+3 Folds
Dealer Folds
BB (ME) Raises $3.04
UTG Raises $5.06
BB (ME) Raises $7.08
UTG Raises $9.10
BB (ME) Raises All-in $9.60

This is a pretty standard spot to get it in, right? Being that he is hardly ever going to have a set since he was the one who open raised preflop, he could have QQ once in awhile, but we have a blocker to that. Two pair is also very unlikely since if he has something like Q3 he is also going to have a lot of Q4-QJ hands that we beat, so pretty much the only reasonable hands that have us beat are going to be AA, KK, QQ and AQ and we split with KQ and beat all of his QJ, Q10, JJ and 1010 type hands.
Results below:
UTG Calls $0.50 with :qh4: :10d4:
 
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ScottishMatt

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He isn't paying off Q4-QT here. He 4x'ed from UTG so it implies he has some knowledge of the game. Unless he is a spewer (you don't mention any read, it isn't as simple as "I has top pair, lets GII") your X/R folds out everything you beat and only gets you called by worse. I don't expect him to ever continue here with less than AQ as an unknown.

I mean yeah, just, he has such a strong range here. Raised a large size from the weakest position, got lots of caller, was still strong enough to Cbet and min-3Bets your flop X/R.

I flat flop. Our actions on other streets are really dependent on the player and seeing as you gave us no information I can't really tell you what to do next. I'm not even going to bother reading the spoiler as I'm sure of the result, these plays are the reason you are a losing player at cash games.
 
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A9ofHearts

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He isn't paying off Q4-QT here. He 4x'ed from UTG so it implies he has some knowledge of the game. Unless he is a spewer (you don't mention any read, it isn't as simple as "I has top pair, lets GII") your X/R folds out everything you beat and only gets you called by worse. I don't expect him to ever continue here with less than AQ as an unknown.

I mean yeah, just, he has such a strong range here. Raised a large size from the weakest position, got lots of caller, was still strong enough to Cbet and min-3Bets your flop X/R.

I flat flop. Our actions on other streets are really dependent on the player and seeing as you gave us no information I can't really tell you what to do next. I'm not even going to bother reading the spoiler as I'm sure of the result, these plays are the reason you are a losing player at cash games.
Thank you very much for the reply.
This was maybe the second hand I played at that table so your assumption that I didn't have any reads is correct.
If I'm flatting the flop should I generally Check call a brick turn and check fold the river?
Also, do me a favor and read the spoiler.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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its generally good to make small escalated bets to build the pot and get reads on later streets in spots like this. i dont like getting it in on the flop. but ive put it in ,in spots like this a gazzilion times. answer is no ,dont do it. he could have an overpair.
 
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A9ofHearts

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its generally good to make small escalated bets to build the pot and get reads on later streets in spots like this. i dont like getting it in on the flop. but ive put it in ,in spots like this a gazzilion times. answer is no ,dont do it. he could have an overpair.

Thanks a lot for the advice.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

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u could use a hand converter to post the hands. u didn't type the hand in manually did you?
 
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A9ofHearts

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u could use a hand converter to post the hands. u didn't type the hand in manually did you?

It was manual since I took it off of Bovada and I'm not really sure how to convert those hands even when they are downloaded.
 
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atownshend

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I like his play, it is a nice variation of set mining. In this case he raised about 4% of the pot, this is a little large contribution for set mining. However, given the range you put him on he is likely to win a lot of pre-flop pots and when he does hit his set his average payout is a lot higher.
 
Aces2w1n

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I don't like the play... It's a clear example of getting lucky here, it's great if you had a read on your opponent and got air but seriously you didn't.

You get lucky here and well you'll push your luck later down the road, This is where your ability to change gears and flick a switch and tighten will really help. Because someone in the background will be watching your play and you'll be targeted as a fish. And if you know exactly what types of players then you'll be even better prepared to take their cash when the times ready.



All in all that hand generally you'll wanna end at the flop because how many times you'll be dominated in this spot, you'll win a small pot and risk losing a big pot.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Congratulations on being lucky. This move may have worked this time but QT is likely the bottom of his range. The guy is clearly an idiot here stacking with QT in this spot however assuming he always stacks TP here and that QT is the bottom of his range you have 41.6% equity vs his 58.6%. Not a good spot to be shoveling chips into the pot.

If you do this vs an unknown then I have to assume this is how you would play your hand as standard, which would explain why you are a losing cash game player. Sure it might have worked out this time, hell the guy can have QJ and it might work out next time but overall his range is going to be beating you here. Not to mention that many other players will only give you action here if you are crushed so if your strategy is just to stack off TP every time then you'd best do a lot of reading and practice if you want to continue playing cash games.
 
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A9ofHearts

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Congratulations on being lucky. This move may have worked this time but QT is likely the bottom of his range. The guy is clearly an idiot here stacking with QT in this spot however assuming he always stacks TP here and that QT is the bottom of his range you have 41.6% equity vs his 58.6%. Not a good spot to be shoveling chips into the pot.

If you do this vs an unknown then I have to assume this is how you would play your hand as standard, which would explain why you are a losing cash game player. Sure it might have worked out this time, hell the guy can have QJ and it might work out next time but overall his range is going to be beating you here. Not to mention that many other players will only give you action here if you are crushed so if your strategy is just to stack off TP every time then you'd best do a lot of reading and practice if you want to continue playing cash games.

Not trying to be hostile.
The reason I posted this hand was because I wanted advice, and I realize I suck at cash games, but not reading the spoiler and saying someone never stacks off with worse isn't necessarily a good idea.
Thank you very much for your input, I truly appreciate it.
 
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ScottishMatt

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Apologies if my post came across as hostile/aggressive. It wasn't intended as such.

The thing is, any player who understands or has experience at cash games is never stacking off QT here. The only reason this was successful is because you happened to find a fish. If you make the same move against every player at a table of 3 nits,3 regs and 2 fish you are never going to profit over the long term.
 
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swingro

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Actually when talking about Bovada i cannot tell you much. Play ABC poker and fold that hand. When you have no stats and no notes you have to take in consideration the basic starting hands chart where payers open up from UTG only with premiums.
One advice maybe. Make yourself and excel file and take notes there. It is easy to find a player with CTR-F to quiqly review some notes. With this you will probabely have a huge edge over the other players that do not bother taking notes.
 
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micromoi

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thats not a standart spot to get it in, u call a utg raise, this guy represent a big hand, KQ is a good hand but not that good against a raise, just because u dont have any info about your opponent hand. and AQ, AK, AA, KK,QQ,are in his range so u will be domanated by those.
u took a 2 much agressive way of play it postflop, by check raising the flop u r pretty much telling him what u had, it a protecion move for a weak Queen, u will raised by better hand only.
when he 4bet u its an easy fold.
 
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micromoi

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I just saw the result, wow the only thing i can tell, dont be result oriented, it's still a non profitable play in the long run.
 
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A9ofHearts

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I just saw the result, wow the only thing i can tell, dont be result oriented, it's still a non profitable play in the long run.

Thank you very much for your advice!
 
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