$10 NLHE Full Ring: Should I be calling this 3bet pre?

W

wildice13

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Total posts
79
Chips
0
So here I flop a set at 10NL, great news! question is, should I be calling the 3bet preflop? I've read alot of of conflicting articles about set mining and whether or not it's profitable at 100bb stacks. I figured that against 2 opponents and without really knowing the maths, that surely it should be?

Opinions please :)

poker stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 9 players - View hand 2799027
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

BTN: $9.63 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 0.8, Hands: 46
SB: $12.66 - VPIP: 15, PFR: 9, 3B: 0, AF: 0.3, hands: 46
BB: $18.81 - VPIP: 19, PFR: 13, 3B: 6, AF: 3.3, Hands: 266
Hero (UTG): $13.69 - VPIP: 23, PFR: 15, 3B: 9, AF: 1.5, Hands: 9623
UTG+1: $4.64 - VPIP: 0, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 8
UTG+2: $31.13 - VPIP: 9, PFR: 0, 3B: 0, AF: 1.0, Hands: 11
MP1: $21.64 - VPIP: 25, PFR: 13, 3B: 0, AF: 0.0, Hands: 8
MP2: $30.74 - VPIP: 11, PFR: 9, 3B: 5, AF: 3.7, Hands: 210
CO: $7.93 - VPIP: 15, PFR: 8, 3B: 20, AF: 1.0, Hands: 13

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with 2 :diamond: 2 :heart:
Hero raises to $0.30, 4 folds, CO raises to $0.90, BTN calls $0.90, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($2.85) 2 :club: 3 :diamond: 7 :club: (3 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.30, BTN raises to $8.73, Hero raises to $12.79, CO calls $5.73 all in

Turn: ($27.34) 6 :club: (3 players - 1 is all in)

River: ($27.34) 5 :club: (3 players - 1 is all in)
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
In terms of full ring isnt that an open fold pre and we have such loose stats dont we?
 
W

wildice13

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Total posts
79
Chips
0
if i was against 1 opponent I would definitely open fold, but it was the cold call, and the fact I closed the action that tempted me to call. I figured that given I had 2 opponents I had better implied odds to set mine. but I definitely want to hear from more experienced playres



stats definitely loose, I'm aware my vpip needs to be lower. Need to post and read more to sort it :)
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
i dont think ive ever open-folded a pp in a cash game against a 3bet. I always try to set mine. so if u ask me it looks a-ok.

not sure if its mathematically correct or not but i think if villain is full stacked and the 3bet isnt massive then its probably fine.
 
samy227

samy227

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 3, 2015
Total posts
34
Chips
0
i think ..is not a good ideea to call..while BTN raise 3xPot..and after calls,hero re-raise and get 2 calls..my opinion
 
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
Fold if they are shortstackers

But remember the reason ppl fold these hands pre is due to not being paid off because late position won't justify shipping all of it.

But all that said a 3bet shows strength so a call is fine.

I think folding any pockets pre is too tight unless they overbet or shove.



.................................


Oh yeh as played I would've done the same.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
i dont think ive ever open-folded a pp in a cash game against a 3bet. I always try to set mine. so if u ask me it looks a-ok.

not sure if its mathematically correct or not but i think if villain is full stacked and the 3bet isnt massive then its probably fine.

What are we looking for; 12 to 1 implied odds or better to set mine, so .60 to call and it when there's two opponents, it's better, though not double. I call pre here, meself.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Closing the action, getting 3.75:1 direct odds to see the flop, I'm good with calling preflop here. We can make up the other ~8:1 we need postflop.

i dont think ive ever open-folded a pp in a cash game against a 3bet.
This is a big leak, and you'll lose money long term. This situation is one of the rare ones where we can call a 3-bet preflop with a tiny pocket pair (we close the action, the 3-bet was small, both villains are full stacked enough, the player who 3-bet looks tight, multiway pot).
 
H

hffjd2000

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 6, 2014
Total posts
2,329
Chips
0
The main thing here would be the correct decision on the flop irregardless of what had came up on turn/river.

I believe, in the long run, calling is a + move since at that point we are ahead on equity.
 
U

UncleConRon

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 8, 2015
Total posts
880
Chips
0
I did right.

There were only two at the point of your raise. The third wasn't in the pool yet. A pair of twos with two better. That is 50-50. I don't know your trip count. You only flop the set a third of time.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Closing the action, getting 3.75:1 direct odds to see the flop, I'm good with calling preflop here. We can make up the other ~8:1 we need postflop.

This is a big leak, and you'll lose money long term. This situation is one of the rare ones where we can call a 3-bet preflop with a tiny pocket pair (we close the action, the 3-bet was small, both villains are full stacked enough, the player who 3-bet looks tight, multiway pot).



I hear ya man. Give me a standard example of a situation where we open raise/f to 3 bet with a PP and dont try to setmine, Just so i can get what you mean.
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
Hold on ,let me talk about a situation like the one we see in this thread.

So we raise From UTG with a small to medium pocket pair . CO or Button 3bet us,which are nits and we are pretty sure that they have a better pair. (does this even matter-nits-lags-tags..?) to whether we r going to fold or not.

Are you telling me that we fold Pre and dont try to setmine? And if so why?

Cause we are OOP and we wont get paid? or cause we dont hit enough to make it a profitable move? And when is it profitable?
 
R

razzor94

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 3, 2015
Total posts
344
Awards
1
Chips
1
Post flop action is fine no doubt. BTN is a passive fishy player who calles with any Ax suited, broadway stuff or a pocket pair. I put him on draws, and if he hit an overset then that just sucks and you have to live with it. CO is probably stuck with his overpairs and cant get away from it. I don't really like a raise here UTG and would rather much consider limping.
1. Becouse there are many players behind you and if you expect a 3bet a lot of the time and you can assume CO will try it( even though its just 13 hands), then there is no point in raising becouse small PP dont play well in a 3Bet pot ESPECIALLY OPP. And if you raise just to hit a set then thats just silly and -EV in the long run. It's fine to open small PP dont get me wrong i do it a lot but you should at least have position and you are confortable with your post flop game or if you think that there will be no 3bets behind you.
2. I dont mind my hand going into a multiway pot. The goal with small PP is to get to the flop as cheaply as you can especially OOP. Hopefully we hit our set and someone hits a draw, top 2 pair, top pair top kicker which we all crush.
3. If someone squeezes behind us thats fine. Our plan still remains the same and that is to hit a set or fold, but now insted investing 10% like we did in a 3bet pot we invest like 3-5%.
4. There is no guarantee that we will stack our oppenent whether we invest 3% or 10% of our stack(I am going as high as 10% couse thats the max you should be investing when setmining and thats against regs that you assume will allways 3bet QQ+ and you think you can stack them if you hit)
 
W

wildice13

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 7, 2014
Total posts
79
Chips
0
Thanks for the input guys, it seems to me like the spot itsself was a unique one which made it okay based on the following:
It's a 3 way pot, we are closing the action, we are playing zoom and can count on at least one of our opponents having an overpair.

Now for the reveal.

We lost the pot. C/O Shows 2 red aces, BTN has 99 with the club :)
 
M

Marginal

Junior Member
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 28, 2009
Total posts
10,426
Awards
3
Chips
2
So no one knows what open folding is apparently.
 
c9h13no3

c9h13no3

Is drawing with AK
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 2, 2007
Total posts
8,819
Chips
0
Are you telling me that we fold Pre and dont try to setmine? And if so why?

Cause we are OOP and we wont get paid? or cause we dont hit enough to make it a profitable move? And when is it profitable?
A general rule of thumb is you need 12:1 odds to set mine. So when you raise to 3.5x, get 3-bet to 12, you're paying 8.5 to win roughly 100 bb's (a full stack). Comes in at 11.75:1, just under the line.

Essentially it boils down to the fact that you need to win a bunch of money often enough to pay for the 85% of the time you don't hit a set. So you need to get in cheap, with the possibility to win a truckload when you hit.

And it does matter LAG vs. Nit. If you knew your opponent had aces, you'll want to setmine more (better chance of getting paid when you hit a set).
 
vinylspiros

vinylspiros

PIRANHA-------->< (((º>
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 9, 2012
Total posts
4,393
Awards
1
Chips
1
A general rule of thumb is you need 12:1 odds to set mine. So when you raise to 3.5x, get 3-bet to 12, you're paying 8.5 to win roughly 100 bb's (a full stack). Comes in at 11.75:1, just under the line.

Essentially it boils down to the fact that you need to win a bunch of money often enough to pay for the 85% of the time you don't hit a set. So you need to get in cheap, with the possibility to win a truckload when you hit.

And it does matter LAG vs. Nit. If you knew your opponent had aces, you'll want to setmine more (better chance of getting paid when you hit a set).


Tyvm c9. Quality info here.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
Vinyl mate
Frequently calling 3Bets with PP (or anything else for that matter) and only continuing when you hit is a sure-fire leak.

Position definitely matters.
You can call more IP but OOP you should only really be continuing with 88+ in a three bet pot unless the opponent is a total 3bet monkey.
If you are calling 3bets you need a way to win a hand when you miss, with less than 88 this becomes increasingly difficult, especially OOP.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
here you go buddy

Here is what has happened when I've called a 3bet with 22. Hit my set once in 8 as I should and won 14bb, nowhere near enough.
I would say this was a pretty standard situation.
Leakbuster picks me up on it and I rarely call a 3 bet with a small pocket pair.
Those are my stats for this year, as you can also see i'm losing with all my low pocket pairs (doing better with SC)
 

Attachments

  • call 3 bet small pairs.JPG
    call 3 bet small pairs.JPG
    129.9 KB · Views: 19
Aces2w1n

Aces2w1n

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2013
Total posts
5,781
Chips
0
I guess it makes sense calling only if its multi to setmine


.. cant cbet oop well u can but wont have initiative so its bad least in position you can bet when its checked to u and steal it

What program is that fig?
 
IPlay

IPlay

Bum hunts 25NL
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 7, 2013
Total posts
2,593
Chips
0
In terms of full ring isnt that an open fold pre and we have such loose stats dont we?

This, an UTG full ring range for pocket pairs is 66+. Also, I am NEVER calling this nits 3bet with deuces.

/thread
 
Top