$10 NLHE Full Ring: Second nut flush draw vs villain

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LeGenie

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 40/10/4

Villain (MP) $10.74 - VP:40 PFR:10 AF:4.0 W:0| STL: 3B:0| CB:100| N:1.30 hands:10

P7 (SB) $2.92 - VP:39 PFR:3 AF:0.6 W:31|38 STL:0|50 3B:3| CB:100|73 N:-6.21 Hands:64

Hero (BB) $9.50 - VP:25 PFR:9 AF:Inf. W:9|0 STL:33|100 3B:0|100 CB:100|67 N:-0.80 Hands:64



Pre Flop: Hero (BB) with K:diamond: T:diamond:

Villain (MP) raises 0.30, P7(SB) calls 0.25, Hero (BB) calls 0.20


Flop: 8:diamond: 2:diamond: J:club: (3 players)

P7(SB) checks, Hero(BB) checks, Villain (MP) bets 0.70, P7(SB) folds, Hero (BB) folds

In this particular hand I am getting a little over 2 to 1 so I am priced in to call but that is assuming villain will not bet the turn since the 2 to 1 odds are to make a flush on either the turn or river with no additional bets.

Now if villain would make a pot sized bet or a 2/3rd of the pot sized bet I wouldn't be priced in to call as my odds of making the flush on the river are about 4 to 1 and the pot will not be laying me those odds.

So how would you guys approach this hand? Would you poss play it aggressively and check raise? If so how much would you c/r and still get correct odds to draw in the event villain calls?

Thanks in advance guys!
 
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Henreiman

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Not sure why you're calling pre if you're folding here? We have a pretty solid spot to get paid with a flush or take it away on the turn.
 
LD1977

LD1977

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I like to check raise strong draws (nut FD, combo draws) and take initiative, quite often the 2nd barrel is enough to get rid of everybody and in worst case scenario I can actually hit and stack the stubborns :D your draw isn't the nut one but should be good enough.

Therefore you don't actually need correct odds to "draw" to your hand since you have pretty decent fold equity. If he calls the c/r with OESD then he needs to have odds to justify calling the turn and he won't have them ;)

If this is full ring (not 3-handed like you show it) then he could raise with T9s, JJ, 88 but most of the time on this board he doesn't have a hand that can stand the aggression (if he is nitty or thinks you are then he might fold overpairs here).

I like to raise 3x, so in this case 2.10 + a standard turn barrel should do the job. If he goes over the top (probably with a set) then you have to get it in.

To balance I take the same line with sets so people who know me tend to be really careful in this spot with overpairs and weaker hands usually just fold.


This is a good example why aggression gets rewarded more than passivity.

River is tricky if you get there and miss though, but since the line is profitable you can afford even check/fold if you think the guy is not folding ever since he has an actual hand.

P.S. Even on anon tables the line should be good since I imagine most people play passively and not like this.
 
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poopinchips

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I like @LD1977 advice. Though I think a check raise here looks weak more often than not in a vacuum. With the additional info LD provided, it is a solid play if you will do that with sets and maybe J8. You have to take the lead here somehow. If you are just playing to hope a bet lays you odds it is a problem because you are not forcing a fold from hands that will just continue and don't have much equity.

Question has to be between check raising and donk bet. I might actually prefer the donk bet here, it really just depends. This board is tough to have a check raise look like much else other than a draw.

Edit: really you can call with implied odds too but it is hard to justify that in this spot where you have no idea if he has anything close to a hand worth trying to get implied odds from.

Second edit: you could also call and if a non diamond Q or 7 hits try and rep 109.

I don't think calling is bad but to me its not preferable.
 
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LeGenie

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I like to check raise strong draws (nut FD, combo draws) and take initiative, quite often the 2nd barrel is enough to get rid of everybody and in worst case scenario I can actually hit and stack the stubborns :D your draw isn't the nut one but should be good enough.

Therefore you don't actually need correct odds to "draw" to your hand since you have pretty decent fold equity. If he calls the c/r with OESD then he needs to have odds to justify calling the turn and he won't have them ;)

If this is full ring (not 3-handed like you show it) then he could raise with T9s, JJ, 88 but most of the time on this board he doesn't have a hand that can stand the aggression (if he is nitty or thinks you are then he might fold overpairs here).

I like to raise 3x, so in this case 2.10 + a standard turn barrel should do the job. If he goes over the top (probably with a set) then you have to get it in.

To balance I take the same line with sets so people who know me tend to be really careful in this spot with overpairs and weaker hands usually just fold.


This is a good example why aggression gets rewarded more than passivity.

River is tricky if you get there and miss though, but since the line is profitable you can afford even check/fold if you think the guy is not folding ever since he has an actual hand.

P.S. Even on anon tables the line should be good since I imagine most people play passively and not like this.

Thank you very much for such a thoughtful post! Highly Appreciated :)
 
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LeGenie

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I like @LD1977 advice. Though I think a check raise here looks weak more often than not in a vacuum. With the additional info LD provided, it is a solid play if you will do that with sets and maybe J8. You have to take the lead here somehow. If you are just playing to hope a bet lays you odds it is a problem because you are not forcing a fold from hands that will just continue and don't have much equity.

Question has to be between check raising and donk bet. I might actually prefer the donk bet here, it really just depends. This board is tough to have a check raise look like much else other than a draw.

Edit: really you can call with implied odds too but it is hard to justify that in this spot where you have no idea if he has anything close to a hand worth trying to get implied odds from.

Second edit: you could also call and if a non diamond Q or 7 hits try and rep 109.

I don't think calling is bad but to me its not preferable.

Thanks for the insight!
 
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