$10 NLHE Full Ring: QQ overpair on scary board

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watchtowel

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Villian Stats (VPIP/PFR/AF): 18/15/1

He donked which I thought might have been to get a cheap flush draw, like a blocker bet. Nasty turn. What do you think of my play and where do I go depending on villains actions. Villain seems to be playing quite conservatively, nothing strange...


pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($10.30)
UTG ($4)
Hero (UTG+1) ($10.40)
MP1 ($15.13)
MP2 ($8.06)
CO ($5.63)
Button ($4.50)
SB ($10.88)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q
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, Q
club.gif

1 fold, Hero bets $0.30, 4 folds, SB calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.70) 4
heart.gif
, 7
spade.gif
, 5
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB bets $0.60, Hero raises to $1.60, SB calls $1

Turn: ($3.90) 6
heart.gif
(2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $2.80 ...
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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ok, I'm not the Best person when it comes to this, but here's my Shot...Why would You A) Bet out on the Turn, Knowing Villain Is C/C your Flop C/R+Donk Leading out into you on the Flop, this only Makes it more likely that' he's Trapping you/Or searching for some Cards that hit his Range on that Flop, This is my Perspective on it... I mean that turn is the worst Possible turn card in the Deck for you, but because you Mentioned he's been Conservative this Makes it more likely that he either came in with Some Sort of SC cards+Pair that Hit "A Set", and Can CC you down now More Lightly...Even C/R you right on the Turn, knowning that you can't really Continue against him, wtihout the Flush/Set/Straight, I mean I personally don't see the Value in betting this turn, That's just me though
 
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watchtowel

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I don't like giving up because a scary card comes especially when he could have many hands I beat. He is passive so I can see him having 99 10 10 or JJ to flat call pf. He also plays rag aces. As well as that I have the Qh so 3rd nut draw. Sets don't normally donk flops and donking is rarely a show of strength.
 
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ariesj11

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Hi watchtowel, Bit of a tricky 1. But as you said his aggression factor was not high ,so there was a chance he had overpair to the board but your bet on the turn was a little risky. What would you of done if he had re raised on the turn?. I would of been tempted to check the turn as there so many draws that could beat you.
 
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watchtowel

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I would probably fold to a raise on the turn because I don't think my Qh would be live and he's not doing it with much less than the nuts. I think giving up on the turn seems weak if you are thinking of check-folding. If you did that at every scare card people will take advantage of that. If you check call, would you fold the river to another bet? Even if you hit the heart you might be dead. And I wouldn't call the turn to hope he doesn't bet the river.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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I would probably fold to a raise on the turn because I don't think my Qh would be live and he's not doing it with much less than the nuts. I think giving up on the turn seems weak if you are thinking of check-folding. If you did that at every scare card people will take advantage of that. If you check call, would you fold the river to another bet? Even if you hit the heart you might be dead. And I wouldn't call the turn to hope he doesn't bet the river.



Here's the thing I'm not Understanding, You C/R the Flop and SB CC your RR Flop Bet, then Checks the Turn over to You, and you instead of Checking Behind and Re-Evaluating on the River, Bet out into him? Now If He/She C/R A.I you possibly Can't Call it, and thus Just Lost Money, So the only Reasonable Line Here is to Check Back and see what they do on the River...

Since you stated this Person is Conservative, AKs, 4s,5s,6s 9s-10s-Js, Even 8s are possible...I don't think the way the Hand was played out that you would rarely see a weaker holdings then this, but like I stated I'm not really The Best at this, I still don't like your Betting into him on the turn, and don't really see any + to it, cuz your putting your hand in a Tough Spot if they C/R A.I
 
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ariesj11

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Hi watchtowel, i would of folded the turn if he had re raised. I understand what you mean about players taking advantage when a scare card comes. Personally i would of thought you q h was probably good if a heart did come on a river as i would of put him some sort of draw when he called your re raise on the flop. i would of said straight draw or low flush draw
 
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watchtowel

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I didn't check-raise the flop, I just raised it and he called my raise. This would be such a weird way to play sets - donking then calling raise on a draw heavy board. I am not worried about sets.

I say he is conservative in that he is not playing loose or doing any fancy things. Donking is most of the time weak in my experience. It is feasable that he might have had broadway cards and donked because he thought the low board would miss me.

I think hands that will call are 99, 10 10, jj or maybe straights. Flushes will probably raise I have outs against everything except ace / queen high flushes so I am happy to accept I am beat if he check-raises the turn and reevaluate river if he calls. If he donks river I also think I am beat because given my aggression, if it didn't scare him he obviously has it.

I normally play aggressive like this so I would like some more opinions if I should turn it down a bit lol
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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Ok, Maybe I'm mis Reading something here, on that Flop? SB bet $.60 Correct, Or Am I mistaken? Then you raised it to $1.60 Correct? Is this not a C/R on the Flop? I've looked over it and it seems like it's a C/R on the Flop:confused:

2ndly Yes most players do Shove Sets on this Board, given the fact that it's so Draw heavy (But Conservative players, Depends)...Yes 8-Js are all in his Range also+Axs+SC cards...I mean, My Opinion of the turn play stands unless I can see another reason for it, but I swear I just can't...I don't play cash also though, so maybe that's why I'm against that play:)
 
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watchtowel

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C/R = check-raise ? that is when a player checks then another bets, then the player who checked raises the other players bet. If I was check-raised in any situation I'd be treading much lighter. I bet preflop and usually other players check to the original raiser. He didn't he donked into me. It isn't usually indicitive of a monster. He might have a draw that is putting out a blocker bet. I see it a lot with top pairs weak kickers. He also may not have liked the draws out there so bet in case I would draw out. Donking can mean a lot of things from what I have seen but is rarely a monster...
 
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ariesj11

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C/R = check-raise ? that is when a player checks then another bets, then the player who checked raises the other players bet. If I was check-raised in any situation I'd be treading much lighter. I bet preflop and usually other players check to the original raiser. He didn't he donked into me. It isn't usually indicitive of a monster. He might have a draw that is putting out a blocker bet. I see it a lot with top pairs weak kickers. He also may not have liked the draws out there so bet in case I would draw out. Donking can mean a lot of things from what I have seen but is rarely a monster...
You are correct in what you are saying that he did donk into you, which normally indicate draws and not a monster. It is quite possible it was a blocker bet the more i think about it. I sometimes bet out in front of a raiser, to try and get a cheap card to make my set or draw.
 
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watchtowel

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You are correct in what you are saying that he did donk into you, which normally indicate draws and not a monster. It is quite possible it was a blocker bet the more i think about it. I sometimes bet out in front of a raiser, to try and get a cheap card to make my set or draw.

You sure you weren't the villain :D
 
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RVladimiro

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Just noticed this hand... villain is somewhat tight and defending the SB, so the only thing I can put him on is suited broadway. If that's the case he either hit it hard or had a plan to bluff his way to the river.
 
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orangepeeleo

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I prob check back the turn, if he checks the river too i maybe bet like half pot depending on the card.

I raise every donkbet that i'm faced with, but this is pretty much pot which is a bit different to the regular "I has bottom pair zomg lets bet for information, i minbet!!" I def call the flop though and then re-evaluate on the turn, if he pots it again i think i'd have to lay it down, but if he checks i'd be betting most turns.

As played, check it back imo and keep the pot small on a dangerous board, I don't think your hand is strong enough to go building the pot for some reason. Will be v.interested to see what he had
 
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orangepeeleo

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Imo, donks on a dry board are weak middle pairs n stuff, donks on a wet board, of near to pot, are a strong hand (relative to the board) trying to stop you checking it back for a free card
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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I personally don't see the Reasoning behind Betting into Villain on that Turn, Unless your Putting Villain on a Weak Pair and that's at worst case....

And Also your Correct in the fact that it Wasn't a C/R but a RR and I would hope you understood what I meant, Sometimes my Brain works Quicker then my typing but I still end up typing it out wrong
 
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watchtowel

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It wasnt a RR either only a raise lol :p. Anyway I am afraid I cannot tell you what he had orange he folded to my turn bet. Can't say I was disappointed lol.

Thanks guys for your advice. I had a ridiculously similar hand with JJ on a 3h5h6d board and a 4h came on the turn. I changed my play to Naruto's and seemed to work out well!
 
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orangepeeleo

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One thing I forgot to say, if your planning on b/f'ing here (which I don't think is a bad line just not what I would do) then I prefer a smaller bet, like half pot. Just saves you however many bb when he does c/r and have to fold.
 
naruto_miu

naruto_miu

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It wasnt a RR either only a raise lol :p. Anyway I am afraid I cannot tell you what he had orange he folded to my turn bet. Can't say I was disappointed lol.

Thanks guys for your advice. I had a ridiculously similar hand with JJ on a 3h5h6d board and a 4h came on the turn. I changed my play to Naruto's and seemed to work out well!


Well Congrats that it worked out for you...And you know what, As Long as you understand what I meant it's all good...Those damn Technicalities of wording that get me, but you understand what I meant right:) ...

Also by all means if your line in those situations was working out for you, by all means stick to it, It's just I wouldn't do it like that (But then again I stink at cash:eek: )...
 
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watchtowel

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I understand what you meant :D. Yeah it worked out, but it also could have went very differently so was good to get advice. I am also much too aggressive and need to calm down, I do not know the meaning of half pot sized bets haha but will try them out some time!
 
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watchtowel

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My standard pf raise is 3xbb should I change it for some reason here or always have a bigger pf raise?
 
BelgoSuisse

BelgoSuisse

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Bigger in early position, smaller on the button.
 
acky100

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Bigger in early position, smaller on the button.

Is this something you always do Belgo?

Lately ive been wondering if i should be doing it/always should of been doing it - I guess up through the levels my standard 4x or 3x has been fine but now ive moved to 25nl ive noticed way more 3betting from the blinds, should i just change my button opening or cut off and button? Would 3x in all positions and say 2.5x on the button be a good idea? Thanks
 
BelgoSuisse

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it's something i mostly do. My late position opening sometimes changes depending on the players in the blinds. Bigger when they are fishes, smaller when they are shortstackers or good regulars
 
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