$10 NLHE Full Ring: QQ OOP against suspect TAG

W

wetyeti

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Total posts
229
Chips
0
$10 NL HE Full Ring: QQ OOP against suspect TAG

pokerstars, $0.05/0.10 NO Limit Texas Holdem Cash Games, 9 Players
Hand Converter by Pokerhand.org

Board:
Gleek11 (Button): $10
TryBetMe (SB): $25.35
matsyendra (BB): $13.85
L.B.P TurKo (UTG): $10.15
3DMacDaddy (UTG+1): $12.90
diamond244 (MP1): $10.70
NARROWBIRD (MP2): $18.30
Akourdideh (MP4): $5.45
bmnziny (CO): $16.55

Dealt to matsyendra Q:club: Q:diamond:

Pre-flop:
(4 folds), Akourdideh raises to $.40, (3 folds), matsyendra raises to $1.10, Akourdideh raises to $3.10, matsyendra calls $2

Flop: ($6.35) 5:spade: A:diamond: 9:spade: (2 Players)
matsyendra checks, Akourdideh bets $2.35 and is all-in,


I only had 110 hands on this player. I figured I had to 3bet QQ and then I flatted his 4bet . I am just beginning to grasp pr ranges so I played kinda cautiously. I did not like the flop. I considered a cbet but decided to check.
What should I do after his shove? Any tips on my preflop play?
Thanks.
 
dwolfg

dwolfg

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Feb 23, 2007
Total posts
583
Chips
0
If your opponent is a tag, then since he/she 4 bet for 60% of his/her stack I think his/her range here is qq-aa and ak.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
fold to the 4-bet or shove. prefer folding; as played probably calling the flop bet.
 
PattyR

PattyR

Cardschat Elite
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 6, 2009
Total posts
7,111
Chips
0
seems like a clear fold imo.

also thought this should have been an insta shove with a fistpump on your part preflop given stack sizes
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Total posts
804
Chips
0
I assume folding here after the shove is the correct option.

There is a chance he is bluffing, but there is a high chance he turns over some sort of ace. Also a possibility he has tens or jacks and reacted accordingly to your check.

To critique you i'd say why in the world would all of the money not be in pre-flop? I feel like that was a terrible move.

The check on the flop I guess I understand because of the ace, but that's exactly why that's even more so of a reason to move in pre-flop!

First you're out of position for one thing, second he probably does not have aces or kings, and if he does unlucky you, and he's committed to the pot so you want him in there! Third, if it does end up being a safe flop for you, chances are it's no good for him, and he miight be able to get away from it, losing you money.

Due to your mistakes pre-flop, you are forced to check fold here imo.
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
First you're out of position for one thing, second he probably does not have aces or kings, and if he does unlucky you


Any reason that you would not put him on Aces or Kings here? With the aggression shown here, at these stakes I would agree with dwolf and be putting him on a very tight range of QQ+ AK (as long as he isn't a spewy fish type). You may see him turn up with AQs or JJ sometimes but thats the best you could hope for. Even with JJ and AQs in there we are a 75/25 underdog after this flop...
 
tomh7795

tomh7795

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 28, 2009
Total posts
545
Chips
0
2 things:
What are his stats?
If you just called the $2 then you have to call the remaining $2.35. Why not just shove when he 4bets you.

I think his range is a lot larger then you are saying.

He's a short stack so he's probably playing 99-AA. AK AQ. QQ def beat that range. Even if he has AA you haven't lost much. Just reload and say nh.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
Shove or fold preflop. He's only a 1/2 stack and can certainly have worse, so I prefer a shove. Calling the 4bet is bad.

As played, I don't fold. Ever. The pot is more than $4 and he's got $2.35 left. He doesn't have to be shoving with worse here very often to make calling correct.

I actually think folding the flop magnifies your mistake preflop.
 
B

baudib1

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 2, 2008
Total posts
6,635
Chips
0
Shove or fold preflop. He's only a 1/2 stack and can certainly have worse, so I prefer a shove. Calling the 4bet is bad.

As played, I don't fold. Ever. The pot is more than $4 and he's got $2.35 left. He doesn't have to be shoving with worse here very often to make calling correct.

I actually think folding the flop magnifies your mistake preflop.


We have to call $2.35 to get to showdown in a pot of $8.60...we're pretty much getting direct odds to rundown a range of JJ+/AK here.
 
-Phil Ivey27

-Phil Ivey27

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Total posts
804
Chips
0
Any reason that you would not put him on Aces or Kings here? With the aggression shown here, at these stakes I would agree with dwolf and be putting him on a very tight range of QQ+ AK (as long as he isn't a spewy fish type). You may see him turn up with AQs or JJ sometimes but thats the best you could hope for. Even with JJ and AQs in there we are a 75/25 underdog after this flop...

Let's really look at the situation here. It's unneccesary to analyze this players stats and depict whether it is likely he may have KK or AA because the truth is you're just not going to fold here.

I'm not saying "pocket Q's foreverrrr, never ever folding them."

But, in this situation, against this short stack? There's pretty much no chance im not pushing here. Who knows, maybe the guy has AQ and got tired of nit picking and not getting any great cards, and became over-aggressive. A major flaw of many micro stakes players who are really tight, otherwise they might be up a little higher.

Regardless, if you're going to call his raise again pre-flop what're you expecting postflop? It's either all-in or fold. No post-flop not containing a queen will make you feel any more comfortable.
 
NineLions

NineLions

Advanced beginner
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 20, 2006
Total posts
4,979
Chips
0
Shove or fold preflop. He's only a 1/2 stack and can certainly have worse, so I prefer a shove. Calling the 4bet is bad.

As played, I don't fold. Ever. The pot is more than $4 and he's got $2.35 left. He doesn't have to be shoving with worse here very often to make calling correct.

I actually think folding the flop magnifies your mistake preflop.


^^^!!!^^^!!!
 
W

wetyeti

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Total posts
229
Chips
0
I meant ot post his stats as well.
121 hands vp17 pfr14
My thought is that I blew it preflop. I wasnt paying attention to that table and missed the previous hand that stacked him. I didnt realize he was halfstacked til the flop. I should have shoved pre.
I ended up folding because I couldnt see blowing another 24 blinds on a poorly played hand.
Thanks guys.
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Total posts
22,973
Chips
0
I meant ot post his stats as well.
121 hands vp17 pfr14
My thought is that I blew it preflop. I wasnt paying attention to that table and missed the previous hand that stacked him. I didnt realize he was halfstacked til the flop. I should have shoved pre.
I ended up folding because I couldnt see blowing another 24 blinds on a poorly played hand.
Thanks guys.

3bet stats would be helpful as well but 17/14 is on the looser side of TAG and the fact that he had been stacked on the previous hand makes this a easy auto stack preflop and again I'm never folding to the flop shove with so much already in the pot.

Also if you can't keep track of what's going on at the table, you're probably playing too many tables.
 
Wes747

Wes747

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Total posts
550
Chips
0
One more thing that I didn't see pointed out was that your 3bet should be a little bit larger. When you're OOP your 3bet should be at least 3x the raise. And yeah...thats easy shove/fold preflop.
 
W

wetyeti

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Jan 3, 2010
Total posts
229
Chips
0
Thanks all,
Im trying to learn how to multitable, fourright now and doing decent.
I really appreciate all the feedback.
 
No Brainer

No Brainer

Losing keeps me sane
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 27, 2009
Total posts
1,853
Chips
0
Thanks all,
Im trying to learn how to multitable, fourright now and doing decent.
I really appreciate all the feedback.


I think four tables is a decent number to stick with for a long time. I have been playing four for a couple months and tried moving up to 6 but found that I was missing spots to profit and making more mistakes. Another reason why I think less tables are better is for note taking. I have started trying to get notes on at least one of the players whenever there is a showdown at one of my tables. This gets really tricky with more than 3 or 4 tables...
 
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
OK thought about it and I think you all have it wrong :p

He lost previous hand is now half stacked, does that mean he's going all in with everything?

The SPR after villain's 4-bet is about 1:1, so we need 50% equity to warrant a shove, we don't get any fold equity since he's well never folding, apart from misclicks or a power/internet outage

Pokerstove says vs JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ we only have 23% equity, vs 77+,AQs+,AQo+ 36% - we only start getting ahead when his range is 33+,AQs+,AQo+ which I really really doubt.

What hands do you really want to add to his range here to warrant the call, SC's, broadways? Isn't it very unrealistic?

Fold pre IMO!
 
thepokerkid123

thepokerkid123

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 31, 2009
Total posts
917
Chips
0
5bet shove pre-flop.

Never fold QQ 50bb deep. The shorter the effective stack the weaker the hands you have to stack with are, obviously. QQ is so far ahead of the range I'm willing to fold at 50bb, JJ can maybe be folded but QQ absolutely never with 50bb stacks.

The SPR after villain's 4-bet is about 1:1, so we need 50% equity to warrant a shove, we don't get any fold equity since he's well never folding, apart from misclicks or a power/internet outage

You're forgetting to count the money villain still has behind. We're getting 1.5:1 on our money. We need only 33% equity.

Pokerstove says vs JJ+,AQs+,AQo+ we only have 23% equity, vs 77+,AQs+,AQo+ 36% - we only start getting ahead when his range is 33+,AQs+,AQo+ which I really really doubt.

No idea what went wrong there, but our equity vs JJ+/AK is 47%, the weakest range we can fold against is QQ+
Your numbers are wrong.
 
Last edited:
C

ComplexPlaya

Legend
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 14, 2008
Total posts
1,347
Chips
0
Your numbers are wrong.

I should stop giving advice since I get the humbers so horribly wrong lol I actually had a board selected in pokerstove that I forgot to clear. Not to mention the equity calculation...:eek:
 
Pokerstudent

Pokerstudent

Visionary
Silver Level
Joined
Mar 17, 2009
Total posts
729
Chips
0
5bet shove pre-flop.

Never fold QQ 50bb deep. The shorter the effective stack the weaker the hands you have to stack with are, obviously. QQ is so far ahead of the range I'm willing to fold at 50bb, JJ can maybe be folded but QQ absolutely never with 50bb stacks.

Gotta agree w/ PK123 here. I think you are starting to 'think' about poker as you stated that you are starting to grasp ranges. Another thing to think about is this: If you decided to flat the 4-bet, what are you planning to do on the flop. Had you already decided that preflop? Did you look at his stack before you flatted? Usually if a tag puts in ~60% of their stack, they aren't going anywhere.

And, as stated, with 50BB, you have to commit preflop.
 
ljove

ljove

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Sep 14, 2009
Total posts
233
Chips
0
Fold,why getting in marginal situation?
 
Top