$10 NLHE Full Ring: KJs LP turn spot ??

$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem (8 players)

SB: $10
BB: $7.51
UTG: $9.37
UTG+1: $11.28
MP: $10 (sitting out)
MP+1: $10.41
CO Hero: $10.15
BTN: $9 No Hands on him yet

Pre-flop: ($0.15) Hero is CO and dealt
UTG calls $0.10, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.45, BTN calls $0.45, SB folds, BB calls $0.35, UTG folds

Flop: ($1.50) (4 players)
BB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

Turn: ($1.50) (4 players)
BB bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75, BTN raises to $2, Hero ??? Should i have bet out turn?? Now is calling the best option or?????

Bet the flop. As played call turn, shove river spade, c/f all other cards, maybe c/c a small bet on river J or K, but probably folding. BTN's range is probably entirely T9, 88.

Bet out flop I think you mean? You already showed me this hand so you know that I think you played it perfect on all streets. Yes call turn. Nail river.

Why do you wanna bet out the flop here with 2 people in the hand and second best pair Baudib? Infact can both of you guys above explain why you do what you do here, im interested in discussing it thx.

When im looking at it thinking what i'd do i seem to be coming towards checking more.

If we bet, we get folds sometimes so thats fine, and its likely atleast 1 of them guys will have a small pocket pair and will be folding to a c-bet on this board, which is fine for us. This board looks really really dry giving the pf action and our hand, so that could be a reason to bet for folds? or a reason to check because we will probably struggle to bet for value? no flush draws or straight draws really...

But we kind of have some showdown value do we not? We dont want a big pot here and if we are called by the button we are in a shit spot when we check the turn.

If we check the flop we keep the pot smaller with a hand we would like to see a showdown with without getting stacks in.

We may also let the button bet the flop with worse hands like these small PP's if he thinks he can take it down.

And if it gets checked down we can bet the turn with probably the best hand and get some value off hands like TT etc...

Just some thoughts, you guys please post what you think.

Betting out on the flop is the best option IMO, it thins the field and prevents drawing hands like 10,9 from hitting for free. Also, it's a good spot to bluff for your opponent because obviously something on the flop scared you or you would have bet the flop being the original raiser. You kind of turned your hand face up for all to see when you didn't bet the flop.

atlantafalcons0 said:

Betting out on the flop is the best option IMO, it thins the field and prevents drawing hands like 10,9 from hitting for free. Also, it's a good spot to bluff for your opponent because obviously something on the flop scared you or you would have bet the flop being the original raiser. You kind of turned your hand face up for all to see when you didn't bet the flop.

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Are you sure ???

acky100,

My thinking here is that I have a good but not nut hand with a backdoor draw as well (spades). I can't stand a raise though. So I would rather just control the size of the pot a little. Its basically a WA/WB situation and giving them a freebee is not that big of a deal. I'm going to bet the turn most of the time and they can call with their much reduced equity draws etc. Betting the flop isn't bad. Like you however I lean towards playing a smaller pot here.

Thanks blackrain, that's pretty much what i was thinking. It doesn't seem like theres anything to be scared of, the only drawing hand he could really have here is T9 and even that is unlikely.

Also, im not sure how face up it makes us look but people at 10nl aren't gonna be super hand readers and if it makes the button bluff us, that's cool for us.

It's a super obvious value bet with a fish in the blinds who can call with worse. Pot-controlling/bluffcatching OOP vs. the BTN is a terrible idea. Also you avoid situations like this.

I think if i didn't catch the J i would be more inclined to cbet flop. Just saying

ALL IN CLUBS said:

I think if i didn't catch the J i would be more inclined to cbet flop. Just saying

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That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever, just sayin.
What difference does it make what you have whether you c-bet the flop or not? What was your plan preflop? What if you hit two jacks on the flop, would you c-bet then? Why?

Atlanta, it does matter what we have. There are some hands we have to bet for value, some we have to check back because we have showdown equity and by betting only better hands call. Sometimes we bet when we have nothing cause we cannot win any other way and we know ppl will fold.

If we miss this board, it is not the ideal c bet position seeing as QJx is going to hit a lot of preflop calling ranges.

I do not know where baudib is getting that it is a fish in the blinds calling with worse but I think once we determine whether someone calls with 88 type hands and T9 type hands we should be c betting. In most cases, we can c bet here.

BB has 75 bbs. How often do you flat a raise from CO/call from button?

Yea but you do realize its still a big assumption

I mean those are pretty damn big signs that you're a fish.

I think my flatting range here would be close to 0%, as we speak I'm getting twitchy to hit the "squeeze" button.

I'm torn between checking and Cbetting the flop, but I'd probably have gone for the Cbet. I do understand trying to keep the pot small though. At least you would have a better idea of where you stand in the hand, and it may have gotten hands like K, 10 and 10, 9 away on the flop (but considering it's $10NL they probably would never fold these hands). On the turn I might re-raise all in, but I think it would probably be a better decision to just call.

baudib1 said:

I mean those are pretty damn big signs that you're a fish.

I think my flatting range here would be close to 0%, as we speak I'm getting twitchy to hit the "squeeze" button.

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Baudib surel you realize there are situations where calling is fine. I mean we can't seriously be playing squeeze or fold

Vs. a single raiser and caller sure but vs. a LP opener and BTN caller? I really can't see it. What hands would you flat?

This ones still giving me problems :/

Right you and marg say c-bet but is that just because we think BB is a fish?

I know youre probably gonna call me a fish for this and i probably am, but i probably do flat call hands in the BB there if i suspect that btn is a fish. Stuff like where i just think i wanna play a decent hand against a fish but where i dont wanna make a big pot PF i dunno, say AQ or something.

I just wanna know why you say its such an "obvious" c-bet before i give up poker and cry

If I were going to flat it'd be something like an AQs, AJs, KQs, maybe a JTs once in a while? AQs, AJs, KQs...that's 12 combos or less than 1% of hands.

But mostly if you think the BTN is a fish I'd 3-bet those and worse hands to get the fish HU.

Flop here is a c-bet IMO mostly for the same reasons. If you want to argue that the BB is not necessarily a fish, w/e, we want to play in position with the likely best hand and really don't want the player behind us to start feeling too feisty.

So the fact that he has cold called in the blinds here and with the amount of blocked combo's on the flop we're thinking BB's range is mostly worse pairs and suited connectors type stuff? - which is why we bet?

I am with you on the hands which id probably flat in the BB if there was a fish on the button, and yeah sometimes we 3bet like AQ, AJ if he's a big fish and calls 3bets with a lot worse, but you know theres a lot of times when we dont wanna 3bet them decent hands because a regular type opens on the CO and we dont think 3betting AQ is good because he doesnt fold enough to 3bets or whatever, so we just flat play a multiway pot where the CO reg will play more straightforward...

What do you think a usual BTN calling range is there when CO opens?

This is all hard i suppose because we really are trying to discuss ranges for unknowns.

Co's range is wide, BTN's range is even wider and is capped so it's a pretty obvious spot to squeeze. It would have to be an unusually tight combo of CO/BTN for me not to squeeze here.

I am instantly assuming the BB is a fish until proven otherwise. Flatting in the BB is not criminal on it's own but is indicative however no auto top up seals the deal. The comments have alluded to it, but so far as I can see there hasn't been any confirmation.

I think we need to cbet this flop for a couple of reasons:

- Value from the fish in the BB. There are a ton of worse hands he can call with and a couple of weak draws. We hold also hold blockers to the draws.

- Force the BTN to expose the strength of his hand. With the BB still to act he is unlikely to float air, and highly likely to raise better. Because of this, whenever the BTN is calling here, it is almost always with worse.

- We can comfortably barrel a ton of turns. Spades or broadways give us backdoor equity and low cards should not improve villain (2-6 say).

I don't really understand the argument about trying to get to showdown cheap because we lack the most important tool of pot control. Position. Our hand is far too weak, and our back door draws are for the most part non-nutted. Multiway, OOP, ugh.

Welcome to CC, and nice reply.

You make some good points about the BTN unlikely to float with air, i never thought of that when i was thinking of what i would do.

I dont actually think if button has like KQ,AQ,QT he is gonna raise us though.

Im being persuaded to bet here now, cause yeah BB is probably a fish. My only problem would be if BTN called us what would we do on the turn.

NoOneYouKnow said:

I am instantly assuming the BB is a fish until proven otherwise. Flatting in the BB is not criminal on it's own but is indicative however no auto top up seals the deal. The comments have alluded to it, but so far as I can see there hasn't been any confirmation.

I think we need to cbet this flop for a couple of reasons:

- Value from the fish in the BB. There are a ton of worse hands he can call with and a couple of weak draws. We hold also hold blockers to the draws.

- Force the BTN to expose the strength of his hand. With the BB still to act he is unlikely to float air, and highly likely to raise better. Because of this, whenever the BTN is calling here, it is almost always with worse.

- We can comfortably barrel a ton of turns. Spades or broadways give us backdoor equity and low cards should not improve villain (2-6 say).

I don't really understand the argument about trying to get to showdown cheap because we lack the most important tool of pot control. Position. Our hand is far too weak, and our back door draws are for the most part non-nutted. Multiway, OOP, ugh.

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Pm someone (acky, tyler69,deuces) about the chat group lol, best 4th post ive seen on this forum