$10 NLHE Full Ring: JJ with 1 over. Check call / fold or bet river?

Unknown villain. I thought he was maybe on a draw, but he didn't seem like he had anything so I decided to check the river to induce a bluff. I didn't look strong either because I only bet the turn when the flop was checked all round.

Should I have donked the flop? How much should I bet turn? And check-call, check-fold or bet river?

poker stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em - 7 players - View hand 1111813
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $8.15
UTG+1: $9.85
MP: $9.80
CO: $10.00
BTN: $10.00
SB: $10.00
Hero (BB): $10.47

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BB with J :diamond: J :club:
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 9 :spade: Q :heart: 7 :heart: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG+1 checks, CO checks

Turn: ($1.25) 3 :diamond: (3 players)
Hero bets $0.89, UTG+1 folds, CO calls $0.89

River: ($3.03) 6 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.50, Hero ?

Are you never 3betting JJ in the BB?

Not much, I do sometimes, but it depends on the villain.

Definitely 3-bet pre.

Donking the flop is the worst play possible. Good opponents at higher levels will bluff raise you, forcing you to fold better hands sometimes.

River would have been much easier had you put out a blocking bet and fold to a raise. Unless you can soul read and put villain on exactly worse hand than yours, betting first seems like a much easier option.

if youre betting the turn why are you checking the river?

cazique said:

Definitely 3-bet pre.

Donking the flop is the worst play possible. Good opponents at higher levels will bluff raise you, forcing you to fold better hands sometimes.

River would have been much easier had you put out a blocking bet and fold to a raise. Unless you can soul read and put villain on exactly worse hand than yours, betting first seems like a much easier option.

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Betting so you won't have to read villain = burning money

ryanmccauley211 said:

Unknown villain. I thought he was maybe on a draw, but he didn't seem like he had anything so I decided to check the river to induce a bluff. I didn't look strong either because I only bet the turn when the flop was checked all round.


River: ($3.03) 6 ♠ (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $2.50, Hero ?

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If your idea was to check so he could bluff his missed draws, it looks like you got exactly what you wanted, so you call. I think your line makes sense and you've accomplished exactly what you wanted by the way you played the hand.

Villain is very unlikely to have a Q based on his flop check in positions so on the river you're only behind a binked 2pair of something like T8 that hit the straight. He certainly has enough missed FDs in his range to make calling correct because with his bet size you only need to be good ~30% of the time. The river check call is best against this villain.

LOL

I checked the river to induce a bluff.. he bet what do I do?

Stu_Ungar said:

LOL

I checked the river to induce a bluff.. he bet what do I do?

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Yeah, he probably lost the hand and was just second guessing his decision based on results but I think he played the hand fine, assuming he called the river bet.

WVHillbilly said:

If your idea was to check so he could bluff his missed draws, it looks like you got exactly what you wanted, so you call. I think your line makes sense and you've accomplished exactly what you wanted by the way you played the hand.

Villain is very unlikely to have a Q based on his flop check in positions so on the river you're only behind a binked 2pair of something like T8 that hit the straight. He certainly has enough missed FDs in his range to make calling correct because with his bet size you only need to be good ~30% of the time. The river check call is best against this villain.

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This is a nice analysis and I agree this is the best line for the hand, looks like a value bluff on the river and I'd be calling down all day

Thanks for your replies. Yeah I did get what I wanted at the river but he turned a set of sevens I wondered if I had done anything wrong or could have played it better... If I bet flop for example and he raised I could have folded because of the queen, but after I knew he didn't have a queen I felt better about my hand.

ryanmccauley211 said:

Thanks for your replies. Yeah I did get what I wanted at the river but he turned a set of sevens I wondered if I had done anything wrong or could have played it better... If I bet flop for example and he raised I could have folded because of the queen, but after I knew he didn't have a queen I felt better about my hand.

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So are you saying you would rather have bet the flop and had him bluff you with 77 so he wouldn't have hit his set on the turn??? If so, really bad logic.

OK, I'm a little confused by this. You say he TURNED a set of 7s, but hand shows he FLOPPED his set. Either way, if I'm OOP and the flop comes with only 1 over to my PP, I'm generally leading at the pot and re-evaluating depending upon villains actions. But, then again, my game is as leaky as the Titanic, so.... Is it the general consensus to NOT bet the flop here (with 1 over to your PP).That seems pretty, well, BAD to me. If you're NOT betting the flop here, what's your plan for the hand v. unknown who has position on you?

Big_Rudy said:

OK, I'm a little confused by this. You say he TURNED a set of 7s, but hand shows he FLOPPED his set. Either way, if I'm OOP and the flop comes with only 1 over to my PP, I'm generally leading at the pot and re-evaluating depending upon villains actions. But, then again, my game is as leaky as the Titanic, so.... Is it the general consensus to NOT bet the flop here (with 1 over to your PP).That seems pretty, well, BAD to me. If you're NOT betting the flop here, what's your plan for the hand v. unknown who has position on you?

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We were not the preflop raiser and I see no good reason to donk this flop. Default action for a lot of players is to raise all (most) donk bets so the "information" you're getting by betting is not even good in most cases. He has a very narrow range that we get value from by donking the flop but most of the time we're just building a big pot OOP with a hand that's behind when called.

WVHillbilly said:

So are you saying you would rather have bet the flop and had him bluff you with 77 so he wouldn't have hit his set on the turn??? If so, really bad logic.

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He hit his set on the flop, so he had it all along. He probably wouldn't have raised if I bet on the flop. Probably would have flat called, but then I could have realised I was maybe behind earlier in the hand

Now maybe you should rethink your play preflop?

WVHillbilly said:

We were not the preflop raiser and I see no good reason to donk this flop. Default action for a lot of players is to raise all (most) donk bets so the "information" you're getting by betting is not even good in most cases. He has a very narrow range that we get value from by donking the flop but most of the time we're just building a big pot OOP with a hand that's behind when called.

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I'm NOT used to people raising my donk bets at all. Almost never happens. Either because they know I'm a nit, or because its the micros. Either way. The whole second part of your post, I've thought that was/is a leak in my game for awhile now. By betting I'm NOT looking to build a big pot etc. I'm looking to take the pot down right then. Perhaps I should be check/calling then since my hand obv has showdown value. Thing is if another over card hits whether its went check/check or he bets and I just call, then I'm really going to be lost. My feeling is, and again this could be totally wrong, that I'm probably ahead right now (after the flop) and I just want to take the pot down right then. Usually a donk bet achieves this for me.

Big_Rudy said:

I'm NOT used to people raising my donk bets at all. Almost never happens. Either because they know I'm a nit, or because its the micros. Either way. The whole second part of your post, I've thought that was/is a leak in my game for awhile now. By betting I'm NOT looking to build a big pot etc. I'm looking to take the pot down right then. Perhaps I should be check/calling then since my hand obv has showdown value. Thing is if another over card hits whether its went check/check or he bets and I just call, then I'm really going to be lost. My feeling is, and again this could be totally wrong, that I'm probably ahead right now (after the flop) and I just want to take the pot down right then. Usually a donk bet achieves this for me.

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So you're just betting to try to win the money in the pot? That's actually pretty hard to do OOP, without initiative, and against multiple opponents. I mean you know that hands that beat you aren't folding so you're not bluffing. There are probably a few hands that you beat that do call but as you correctly pointed out playing your hand on the next 2 streets when OOP can be very difficult if your opponent wants to make it hard on you.

WVHillbilly said:

Now maybe you should rethink your play preflop?

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You think I should have 3bet?

Yeah, I just want the hand over right then. It IS hard without initiative. That's why I Donk Bet. Seems to be +EV v. check/calling where I'm taking a passive line.

No, I'm not bluffing at all. I make this move totally thinking i'm in the lead. If they float, then I need to re-evaluate depending on the turn. If they raise..... well, thats a problem. But, I figure, if I'm willing to call their bet on the flop, I may as well be the one to take the lead. As I said, I may be totally wrong in this, but I'm more comfortable leading out here than I am check/calling. In my (limited) experience if I just check/call I almost certainly will be facing another bet on the turn, too.

Rather just take the initiative right away and try to end the hand quick, or, villain-dependant, be done with it if he plays back at me. Again, I'm totally willing to concede this may be a leak in my game, but I'm just not comfortable playing a big pot with J-J when there is already one over card on the flop and who knows what the turn will bring and I'm OOP.

ryanmccauley211 said:

You think I should have 3bet?

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I 3-bet here frequently. I know I'll get flamed for this, but I want to see where the EP raiser is (or at least get some idea). The CO hasn't really shown any strength pre, so unless he's a tricky player/slowplaying I'm more concerned about the EP raiser than I am about the CO. If I 3-bet I'll want to see what EP does and, if I have any info, check his stats for how he responds to being 3-bet.