$10 NLHE Full Ring: Did I overplay AK, or is this just a cooler?

Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
My questions are: I know this is a super unlucky flop but am I supposed to be able to get away from this? He's not repping much when he raises me on flop, just basically sets of 3s and 5s. The Q on turn is pretty bad as that's one of his only possible value hands that he could have raised on flop that I was beating; but all his bluffs are still alive. At what point in the hand should I give up? or am I supposed to just stack off here?

Merge - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 66.8 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, hands: 5)
UTG+1: 92.6 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP: 37.9 BB (VPIP: 20.59, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)
MP+1: 93.6 BB (VPIP: 37.25, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
MP+2: 33.4 BB (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
CO: 95.2 BB (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 43)
BTN: 176.4 BB (VPIP: 29.25, PFR: 17.69, 3Bet Preflop: 3.92, Hands: 148)
Hero (SB): 139.1 BB
BB: 275.5 BB (VPIP: 70.73, PFR: 26.83, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Ad
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop : (21 BB, 2 players) 5c Kh 3s
Hero bets 9.8 BB, BTN raises to 30.6 BB, Hero calls 20.8 BB

Turn : (82.2 BB, 2 players) Qs
Hero checks, BTN bets 41.1 BB, Hero calls 41.1 BB

River : (164.4 BB, 2 players) 8s
Hero checks, BTN bets 45.2 BB, Hero calls 45.2 BB

BTN shows Ks 5s (Flush, King High)
(Pre 29%, Flop 82%, Turn 89%)

Hero shows Kc Ad (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 71%, Flop 18%, Turn 11%)

BTN wins 240.7 BB
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
A bit difficult to be sure because 9 max.

Micros 6max, on the dry flop when you face a raise you are beating air (might be A-high, or Pocket pair too) and oddly played top pair. Without reads default line is to fold. Luckily there are many times hints that allow the call, (stats and notes), which are usually quite funny looking for these players. Given only VPIP PFR 3bet I would read him passive with no intention to bluff you on dry flop. So no air in his range, but still oddly played inferior value hands. Btw you get bad marks of not noting him before, suited junkie should be recognized usually after one showdown.

After calling the flop it’s very hard to fold anymore :( but in theory you cold fold turn or river. Oh just a hint, after you call the flop and bet sizes will go down you know you beat him mostly.

I would not put him on the 2P but both 33 and 55 are in his range, only somewhat logical hand KQ got there on the turn. After this hand marking him ‘any two suited player’ makes you win the money back in no time.

3barrel river bluffs are non-existent in my experience from passive players.

And hands like this you really don't want to post results.
 
Last edited:
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Also, yes, folding TPTK here opens you to bluffs, you are protected by the fact that nobody believes someone can really fold TPTK. Except those who show that on the stats.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
You have to make your key decision on the turn here.I'd call the flop pretty much always and see what he does in case it was some random bluff on a static board. His turn bet is though pot committing so does the Queen help him or is he already made...?
I think KQ can raise the flop in the hands of a bad aggro and he looks loose/bad so knowing his overall aggression is the key.
He is loose enough to probably call 3bets with small pairs so I would include them a bit more in my thinking than against tighter players.
My stock lines here are if AF is low-medium then fold, if its high call him down. If his AF is very low you can fold on the flop.
Also how you have been playing should be taken into account. If you have been snug with limited 3betting I'd give him more credit and visa versa.
I would have helped not to post his hand as it does influence analysis not matter how hard you try to ignore the outcome.
 
Last edited:
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
I would add I'm constantly surprised how loose some players call 3bets especially in position. I recently got stacked in a similar fashion by someone who called with 86s on the button.Two pair here is so unlikely on this flop in pretty much discounting it from my thinking but the looser they are The more you have to consider it.
 
B

braveslice

Pull-ups!
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 9, 2013
Total posts
1,988
Chips
0
Hmm maybe I read him not that active wrongly given format, vpip pfr difference says he likes to cal a lot though.
 
Figaroo2

Figaroo2

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Sep 9, 2013
Total posts
7,363
Awards
16
Chips
13
29/17 is loose for full ring. In fact I consider anything vpip over 22 loose. The best players at these stakes full ring tend to be Tags in the ranges vpip 15-17 and 13-15 pfr. 3bet 6-8%. AF 2.5 to 3.5I start labelling Nits at vpip 12% and under.
 
John A

John A

Poker Zion Coach
Silver Level
Joined
Apr 12, 2012
Total posts
6,492
Awards
3
Chips
37
Calling the flop is std unless he's anemically passive. As played, you have to decide if you're continuing on the turn or not. Calling shouldn't be an option. So to your question, yes, you could have gotten away from this hand... on the turn. Especially considering your stack size. Getting 130+ BBs in with TP is rarely good, especially at full ring. This should be a turn fold vs. most opponents unless they are very aggressive because non KQ Kx hands are checking the turn a lot. Even AK. Bluffs are likely shoving turn, not baiting you in w/ that bet sizing.
 
R

RakeMyLife

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
May 1, 2013
Total posts
208
Chips
0
Tough to get away from that.

He played it very awkwardly (and got lucky really), so I don't see how you can put him on a flush or two pair by the river. If you're folding, it would be on the turn (as he looks to be repping a set), but even that would be an overly tight fold given his stats.
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
Getting 130+ BBs in with TP is rarely good, especially at full ring. This should be a turn fold vs. most opponents unless they are very aggressive because non KQ Kx hands are checking the turn a lot. Even AK. Bluffs are likely shoving turn, not baiting you in w/ that bet sizing.
I agree with this. However the fact that it’s full ring matters Little in this spot since it’s Button vs SB. And folding TPTK is not a problem for me but this flop wasn’t the right type of flop for me to fold. 9TK...sure I can get away on flop or at least turn.

But I agree about his turn sizing. Bluffs would tend to jam.
 
Micro Maven

Micro Maven

Rock Star
Silver Level
Joined
Aug 19, 2013
Total posts
235
Chips
0
I'm no good so I get to the river in this spot sometimes and by then, he's got a ton of Kx spades, KQ, sets in his range and I think I'm the only player that 3 barrel bluffs so should def fold on river to a decent bet
 
jsnake716

jsnake716

Legend
Bronze Level
Joined
Dec 6, 2016
Total posts
1,007
Awards
4
Chips
0
You have to make your key decision on the turn here.I'd call the flop pretty much always and see what he does in case it was some random bluff on a static board. His turn bet is though pot committing so does the Queen help him or is he already made...?
I think KQ can raise the flop in the hands of a bad aggro and he looks loose/bad so knowing his overall aggression is the key.
He is loose enough to probably call 3bets with small pairs so I would include them a bit more in my thinking than against tighter players.
My stock lines here are if AF is low-medium then fold, if its high call him down. If his AF is very low you can fold on the flop.
Also how you have been playing should be taken into account. If you have been snug with limited 3betting I'd give him more credit and visa versa.
I would have helped not to post his hand as it does influence analysis not matter how hard you try to ignore the outcome.

Calling the flop is std unless he's anemically passive. As played, you have to decide if you're continuing on the turn or not. Calling shouldn't be an option. So to your question, yes, you could have gotten away from this hand... on the turn. Especially considering your stack size. Getting 130+ BBs in with TP is rarely good, especially at full ring. This should be a turn fold vs. most opponents unless they are very aggressive because non KQ Kx hands are checking the turn a lot. Even AK. Bluffs are likely shoving turn, not baiting you in w/ that bet sizing.

Thanks guys and to the OP for the hand. This has become a more "common" spot , even playing at 5NL. I appreciate the detailed breakdown and it has helped me with a beter perspective. I cannot tell you how much these hand history's have helped me as I do not have "friends" that I can sit around with and discuss poker .
 
duggs

duggs

Killing me softly
Silver Level
Joined
Jul 28, 2011
Total posts
9,512
Awards
2
Chips
0
Im calling flop, turn is one of the worst ones for us i guess, but its such an odd line im likely just calling down regardless
 
C

CuddlyBobcat30

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Total posts
35
Chips
0
My questions are: I know this is a super unlucky flop but am I supposed to be able to get away from this? He's not repping much when he raises me on flop, just basically sets of 3s and 5s. The Q on turn is pretty bad as that's one of his only possible value hands that he could have raised on flop that I was beating; but all his bluffs are still alive. At what point in the hand should I give up? or am I supposed to just stack off here?

Merge - $0.10 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 4: http://www.pokertracker.com

UTG: 66.8 BB (VPIP: 40.00, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 5)
UTG+1: 92.6 BB (VPIP: 57.14, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 14)
MP: 37.9 BB (VPIP: 20.59, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 34)
MP+1: 93.6 BB (VPIP: 37.25, PFR: 5.88, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 51)
MP+2: 33.4 BB (VPIP: 17.39, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 23)
CO: 95.2 BB (VPIP: 18.60, PFR: 0.00, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 43)
BTN: 176.4 BB (VPIP: 29.25, PFR: 17.69, 3Bet Preflop: 3.92, Hands: 148)
Hero (SB): 139.1 BB
BB: 275.5 BB (VPIP: 70.73, PFR: 26.83, 3Bet Preflop: 0.00, Hands: 41)

Hero posts SB 0.5 BB, BB posts BB 1 BB

Pre Flop: (pot: 1.5 BB) Hero has Kc Ad
fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, fold, BTN raises to 3 BB, Hero raises to 10 BB, fold, BTN calls 7 BB

Flop : (21 BB, 2 players) 5c Kh 3s
Hero bets 9.8 BB, BTN raises to 30.6 BB, Hero calls 20.8 BB

Turn : (82.2 BB, 2 players) Qs
Hero checks, BTN bets 41.1 BB, Hero calls 41.1 BB

River : (164.4 BB, 2 players) 8s
Hero checks, BTN bets 45.2 BB, Hero calls 45.2 BB

BTN shows Ks 5s (Flush, King High)
(Pre 29%, Flop 82%, Turn 89%)

Hero shows Kc Ad (One Pair, Kings)
(Pre 71%, Flop 18%, Turn 11%)

BTN wins 240.7 BB



So My response will be a combination of some lines I may have taken in this situation with this hand, and some different things I might have done if I had taken the line that you did.
I will try to remain objective although I already know what the villain is holding, so my thoughts are going to be from the position that I do not know what villain holds.


After the BTN has raised to 3BB I think we should be raising to 12BB or 3x his bet +1 increment of this bet. Reason being is that we are out of position, the BTN is able to open a fairly wide range, and we still have the B.B. left behind us to act. Also, of the button’s opening range, there are a lot of drawing hands within their range that can float a raise in position and see a flop; we want to make sure that we are taxing him to see the flop with a drawing hand.
In the event that the button 4-bets us I think that we’re left with two options: to call or to 5-bet all-in. Either line has merit to it.

So if we call the 4-bet we now have to play out of position post flop which isn’t entirely bad, given the strength of our hand, because we can easily maneuver boards that hit us hard, and easily avoid being strung along on boards that hit their range more. Although the upside of a 5-bet shove is that we now don’t have to play out of position, a good amount of the time we will take it down preflop, and in the event that we do get a call we aren’t in bad shape. More often than not if we receive a call we are coin flipping at worst because we have blockers to both pocket K and pocket A. It is definitely viable in a situation like this for the button to be 4-betting with strong hands that he wants to play post flop in position, but hands that are not strong enough to happily go all in pre flop (hands such as suited wheel aces, suited broadways, pocket pairs, or even occasionally an imaginative player with suited connectors). I think that the 5-bet shove is definitely also a good choice if we are a less experienced player or if we feel that the player on the button is very good at playing post-flop. By going all in it leaves us no tough decisions to make on later streets, and it’s less likely for the button to hold AA or KK than it is for him to have either an ace or a king suited or connected. Pretty much by making this move it feels like we are repping AA,KK, or a stone cold bluff which puts the button to a rough decision with almost all of his likely holdings. On the rare occasion we get snap called by aces or kings, that’s just unfortunate.

If we do flat the button’s raise, the largest aspect of how we play later streets will be determined by board texture. When the flop comes 5K3 rainbow I think we should be checking a good amount of the time. If we donk bet this flop it really feels like the button will just be folding all of his bluffs and calling all of his better hands. If the board were a little more wet it might make sense to lead into the aggressor. By checking we keep all of his bluffs in and on the off chance we are behind we aren’t putting ourselves in a position to lose more than we have to. We also don’t have to be very worried about letting him check behind and see the turn for free because it isn’t a very draw heavy board.
But we go ahead with a bet. Now the button has raised us, and we’re put in a tough situation. The only things this raise represents are a hand better than ours or a stone cold bluff, and our hand is just too good to fold but not quite good enough to come over the top. So, per usual, our options are to call, fold, raise, or go all in. I think the two options we should pick between are folding or raising. Because we’ve already been raised both preflop and on the flop, it doesn’t feel all to likely anymore that we are either ahead or that we’re going to get to showdown cheaply. So unless we have a gut feeling that we are ahead, a sigh and a fold seems prudent. If we do think that we’re ahead against this specific player, a raise seems to make sense so that we can try to get it all in on the turn.

So we go ahead with a call and see a Qs on the turn. This is not a horrible card for us, but it’s also not the best. While it doesn’t necessarily hit our hand, it does hit our range in the SB given the preflop action. It doesn’t really feel like it hits his raising range on the flop very hard. It’s hard to say what he might be raising our bet with that isn’t already crushing us that this card helps -maybe KJss? But even that doesn’t seem much like a hand he should be raising us on the flop with because we bet into him. With top pair, a decent kicker, and some possible backdoor draws even that doesn’t feel like a hand that would have much reason to raise the flop. Basically at this point it feels like we should be trying to get to showdown in the cheapest way we can I guess?
All in all, by betting into him on the flop we’ve put ourselves in a position where we’re easy to exploit. By calling his raise we set a precedent that allows other players to trap us by raising our bet on the flop when they think they’re already ahead. If we fold we’re setting a precedent that allows other players to either bully us off of a hand when they think they’re ahead, or to go for value by just calling our bet if they have a hand that may improve on later streets.
By checking the flop and waiting to see what the aggressor does we maintain ambiguity about our hand strength on this given flop, and can make a better decision about what to do next after seeing what the button does.

Anyways those are just some of my thoughts, sorry that I wrote a book[emoji23] and sorry if my response was long-winded or redundant. I just found this hand to be somewhat interesting. Let me know what you guys think
 
Jacki Burkhart

Jacki Burkhart

long winded rambler...
Silver Level
Joined
Oct 12, 2013
Total posts
2,960
Awards
6
Chips
0
It seems like you thought he 4bet me. But he didn’t. I 3bet him preflop and he flatted. So it’s not a donk bet to lead flop if you have the betting lead (even OOP).
 
C

CuddlyBobcat30

Enthusiast
Silver Level
Joined
Dec 11, 2017
Total posts
35
Chips
0
It seems like you thought he 4bet me. But he didn’t. (even OOP).



Ah, my fault I misread it then kind of ran with my thoughts. Now I feel stupid lol. Sorry about that.
But I still don’t mind checking in that spot though. With him flatting the raise it feels almost just as likely that he will be betting bluffs after being checked to on the flop but folding worse if we bet on it. What do you think?
 
J

jonzy618

Rising Star
Bronze Level
Joined
Feb 19, 2018
Total posts
1
Chips
0
dumb it down

what kind of game is it up to this point? what kinds of hands are people playing and winning with? i.e. What plays well? I would rather play a 67 suited at my local home cash game on Saturdays than Aces. likewise I will never call with a K5 suited (even in position) against my favorite seat at the casino. Unless this particular villain is a known maniac either exercising pot control, or playing more 1988 style of tight -mega- aggressive (where you only play premium hands for massive pots preflop) you will not get them to fold their suited king-rags, one gappers, any ace, or bottom pair hands. If you ask me, I believe you want players to play like that against you, and yet you also want to be a skillful enough player to be capable of MAKING MID HAND ADJUSTMENTS. Rethinking that IT IS POSSIBLE the opponent had some kind of weird junk hand just this one time is an intangible similar to NY Giants ability to catch a football with his eyelashes...
Some things you just can't teach, my point is most of the time the way you played it was correct, but not this time.
 
Top