$10 NLHE Full Ring: How should I have played the flop?

Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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$10 NL HE Full Ring: How should I have played the flop?

Stacks:
* BTN with $10.00
* SB with $7.31
* BB with $2.00
* UTG with $10.00
* UTG+1 with $2.70
* MP1 with $2.80
* MP2 with $5.00
* MP3 with $7.75
* CO with $14.74

hand.pl


hand.pl

Blinds: $0.00/$0.00
Site: full tilt poker
* * Dealt to CO:6♠ A♠
* * Sklansky group 5
Preflop:
* * 2 players fold.
* * MP1 calls [$0.10]
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP3 calls [$0.10]
* * Hero calls [$0.10]
* * BB checks
* * 2 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 5
* * Potsize: $0.45
Flop:
* * J♦ Q♠ 10♣
* * BB checks
* * MP1 bets [$0.20]
* * 2 players fold.
* * MP3 calls [$0.20]
* * Hero calls [$0.20]
* * 1 players folded.
* * Total folds this street: 1
* * Potsize: $1.05
Turn:
* * 6♥
* * MP1 bets [$0.30]
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP3 calls [$0.30]
* * Hero calls [$0.30]
* * Potsize: $1.95
River:
* * A♥
* * MP1 bets [$1.95]
* * MP3 raises to $7.15, and is all in
* * 1 players fold.
* * MP1 calls [$0.25] [ all-in ]
* * Uncalled bet of $4.95 returned to MP3
* * Total folds this street: 1
Results:
* * MP3 shows :
* * K♥ 10♦
* * MP1 shows :
* * 10♠ K♣

Preflop, I was playing this as a flush draw hand... Im not keen on raising A rag preflop, but will call A rag suited for flushes.

Flop, here I had a gunshot, so I figured I should call and redecide on the turn.

Turn, here I pick up a pair of 6's .. still got the GS... plus 2 more outs to 2 pair.. the bet is small, so I decide to call it. (I didnt think about the A completing straight draws!!

River.. this is where I figured out that I had hit 2 pair.. but the A had completed other draws.

So all in all not well played.. should I have rereised the flop and then folded the turn .. or was it still OK to call.

On the turn was it worth even thinking get a small pair to SD ... im thinking now that the flop was very likely to give someone a pair.

River.. well that ws an easy fold.
 
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switch0723

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fold or raise pre

fold flop

fold turn

fold river
 
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feitr

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ya this is really bad - try not to limp hands (so raise or fold as switch said) and there is no way you should ever ever ever ever ever be calling any of these streets since this board has their range's crushed and even if you hit your 4 outer (which is probably all the outs you ever have here) you aren't going to get paid off since your hand is obvious.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I know why you say fold or raise pre, but isnt my goal with a hand like this pre to create a multiway pot?
 
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feitr

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You make a flush such a tiny % of the time that there is no way you should be looking at a suited ace as "flush mining" lol. It is for all intensive purposes just slightly better than ace rag. So you can fold to prevent getting into a pot where you only have one high card that can give you a decent pair, and even then that pair is often going to get you into more trouble than good (domination issues), or you raise to take the initiative and shut limpers out of the pot (ie. isolate) and increase the odds of you being able to win the hand without a showdown, which greatly increases the equity of your hand. Although you should still be looking to raise or fold with a suited connector, at least that is alot better of a hand to be getting into a multiway pot because you also have straight opportunties, you don't have domination issues (as you do with ace rag) and an 8 high flush is almost always as good as an A high flush, since flush over flush is so rare.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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This, stop chasing gutshots!

Yeah I think thats probably the best thing to do!!

ya this is really bad - try not to limp hands (so raise or fold as switch said) and there is no way you should ever ever ever ever ever be calling any of these streets since this board has their range's crushed and even if you hit your 4 outer (which is probably all the outs you ever have here) you aren't going to get paid off since your hand is obvious.

Very true
 
NineLions

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I'd vote against the crowd pre.

I think overlimping suited aces is fine if you think that you're not likely to get raised off the hand preflop, though it is better if the kicker is 2,3,4,5 as you get the added straight draw.

Yes it's possible that you're not going to get paid off all the time, but I think there's enough times that you will get paid off by Q9s in the blind or 78s in mid position. Especially at lower levels, but even then one of my DC heros believes in it too.
 
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switch0723

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no, limping suited aces preflop is just god awful. If we hit we only get action from the hands we beat. Seriously limping this is a leak. Folding is fine, raising over the limps is the sexy non nit way to play

You might be limping way to much if you do this a lot, what are your stats stu?
 
Stu_Ungar

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Generally my stats are around 22/16

I have been making a concious effort to limp a little more than before and so they are comming down a bit to around 20/12

They used to be sky high!! 40/20 ish, I was playing far too many suited connectors and gappers. I have obviously reduced these greatly.
 
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switch0723

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ye thats not good. Your raise figure is fine, but definately stop limping all these marginal hands. From where you are, aim to get it down to 14/12
 
Dorkus Malorkus

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Flop, here I had a gunshot

fold, sit out, and call an ambulance after getting gunshot imo.

on a more serious note, fold everywhere - the entire hand is spew.
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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ye thats not good. Your raise figure is fine, but definately stop limping all these marginal hands. From where you are, aim to get it down to 14/12


But isnt my PFR supposed to be about half of my V$IP.

Its something that I have been wondering about for a while, here on CC everyone advocates a high raising amount pre, yet in any books I read they do advocate limping more.

Is the high PFR a micro thing? I just cant figure out why the advice in print on PFR is so different to the advice here.
 
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switch0723

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But isnt my PFR supposed to be about half of my V$IP.

Its something that I have been wondering about for a while, here on CC everyone advocates a high raising amount pre, yet in any books I read they do advocate limping more.

Is the high PFR a micro thing? I just cant figure out why the advice in print on PFR is so different to the advice here.

omg no, pfr should be nowhere near half. as a very general rule which ive just made up because it kinda works, is that pfr is about 2% lower than vp. So like 14/12, 15/13

lol most books suck, seriously. They are so outdated and are written by live players who play with some insanely bad fish because its live poker so that can basically make a profit by limping 100%.

The internet is far far far more aggressive than live, and has become increasingly more over time, if you limp, you will get destroyed by good players.

also 13 isnt a high pfr, its kinda standard, fwiw i play 13.4/11.7 and thats kinda nitty
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Ok thanks

Ill reduce my limping.

Yes most books are by live players.. I tried following Harringtons cash game preflop stratagy, but the stats were way too high, so I had to tone it down a bit.
 
SavagePenguin

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Pre-flop I'd fold. But If I did play I'd raise to isolate myself in position with one caller, or ideally take the pot down without a flop.
There are two ways to win a hand, having the best cards at showdown and having the other guy fold. Limping prevents you from winning by having them fold (a better hand!) *and* it lets them make some really weird/unpredictable hands that can damage you severely if you happen to make a good hand yourself.

CO:6♠ A♠
* * J♦ Q♠ 10♣

That flop is poison and I'd be done with it. If a King hits you'll either get no action or you'll get a huge pot that you have to split and pay rake on.

Turn * * 6♥
Bleh. That card helps nobody, not even you (unless a second 6 hits the river). What are you drawing to at this point, another 6? Fold-city!

River * * A♥. Easy fold. Any K has you crushed, and they could have easily had hands like A/T or A/J which still beat your A/6.
 
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