$10 NLHE Full Ring: How to handle a raise on a JKK flop with JTs

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deebeedubbs

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Hi all,

First time posting here and a new player, so please bear with my inexperience. I've been playing a very casual weekly $5 buy-in game with friends and I got put into a tricky situation last week.

There were 8 people at the table and everyone plays pretty loosely. I raised from middle position for 3bb with JTs and got called from late position preflop.

Flop came down JKKr and I led out for a little over 1/2 pot. I think that that was my first mistake-probably should have checked it, since check-calling at least until the river seems like a better approach. But...that's not what happened.

Villain raised me to a little over two times the size of my bet. I figured the following: this guy has a jack and wants the pot to end, this guy has a king and is oddly choosing not to slow play it, he doesn't put me on anything and is raising with an underpair, or it's a bluff. I didn't put him on QQ or AA since I would think that he would have 3bet preflop. If he had the J, which made the most sense to me, then he likely had me outkicked, though I had seen this player play very loosely in the past and he could have QT, AQ, AT, J9 or J8, I suppose.

So I had put myself into a really tricky situation by betting out on the flop, expecting at most a call. A mistake. What plan would you take for playing this hand? What should my course of action have been facing the raise? A re-raise to represent a king and try to get the pot over with, expecting only a king to call/raise? Then I'd know where I stand and I could get out of the pot easily in future streets. Folding seems a little conservative.

The rest of the hand proceeded pretty dumbly, largely because of the bad situation I got into on the flop.

Thanks for the help--this hand has replaying in my head for a while and I need some resolution!
 
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Omahahahaha

Omahahahaha

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But is it so weird, really, to fast play a big hand?
 
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deebeedubbs

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I guess not. I'd trap if I were to have a king, since the flop was pretty dry. What line of play would you suggest from start to finish? Check call, check call, check fold? The turn and river cards were blanks.
 
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markrh13

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From your description I think I would play it as you did until he raises on the flop and then fold as there is very little that you are good against there (unless you have player history where you know he is capable of raises with absolute air).
Regarding the check-call line, I think that could get you into more trouble. As played, you get raised and know pretty well that your hand isn't good. By check calling the whole way, he could have a Jack, a king, QT, or some thing like A-high that he's trying to bluff the pot with because you've shown weakness. You have no way of narrowing down the possibilities, so you could well end up calling down 3 streets hoping for the best.
That's my thoughts on it :)
 
Omahahahaha

Omahahahaha

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I don't mind bet fold or check call on the flop against an unknown.
 
Aces2w1n

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Most beginners tend to look at their holdings. Alright so your betting on a board which can be hard to connect with.

Often players at the bottom levels play their 2 hands... So if hes raising its exactly what he has usually(a monster).

Question i ask myself when im raised is.. is this guy good enough to bluff or be creative. And most times its not but it does happen when i call and im correct.

So yeah bottom levels usually just believe they normally have what they are selling. They play their 2 cards not even thinking about what you have.

So we fold to exploit them :)
 
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markrh13

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If you check-call flop and the turn is a blank though, such as OP says it was, then would you call or fold? Surely if on flop you felt your hand was strong enough to call and the turn does not improve either of your ranges, then you should be calling turn too? Then potentially same dilemma on river!
 
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deebeedubbs

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Thanks all for the suggestions. Playing out of position ain't easy.
 
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Snakester420

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If you check-call flop and the turn is a blank though, such as OP says it was, then would you call or fold? Surely if on flop you felt your hand was strong enough to call and the turn does not improve either of your ranges, then you should be calling turn too? Then potentially same dilemma on river!

I'm pretty sure that your opponent's range improves every time they bet... So no exactly true with the check-call question. Your opponent is probably more likely to triple barrel with stronger holdings than weaker ones, unless they are bluffing way too often.
 
Omahahahaha

Omahahahaha

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And here observing your opponents is helpful. When they bluff (if they bluff) are they 'one and done' types or are they going to be tenacious and continue to barrel? Poker is not played in a vacuum. Studying your opponents and taking notes on their play is a big part of the game.
 
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markrh13

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That's true about villain's range improving... I still think for me I would prefer the bet-fold line as it's more clear cut. No tricky decisions later on!
 
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