$10 NLHE Full Ring: Hit two pair on the flop against 33/0

F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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First time that I have played against this villain, only have about 20 hands with them, no notes but as they overlimped they could have a very wide range of hands.

Poker Stars - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $6.73
BB Hero: $4.72
UTG: $3.40
UTG+1: $4
MP: $10
MP+1: $7.95
MP+2: $8.37
CO: $15.49
BTN: $10.25

Pre-flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB and dealt :8s4: :5s4:
3 folds, MP+1 calls $0.10, MP+2 calls $0.10, CO checks, BTN calls $0.10, SB folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: (5 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets $0.50, 2 folds

What next?
 
micromachine

micromachine

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Against 5 players it is likely one has an ace. I would raise up to $1.50-$2.00 and hope to get called by Ax or a flush draw. I'm not a full ring player though :D
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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Because I am playing short-stacked I tend to have a push/fold mentality, not sure whether that is a weakness?
 
bgomez89

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Bet flop.

As played c/r. Please dont slowplay at these stakes
 
WVHillbilly

WVHillbilly

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Stop short stacking. You're making baby Jesus cry.
 
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baudib1

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I guess raise to like $1.50 and hope he shoves? Your stack is a bit big to just shove here. problem is, a lot of bad turn cards. C/f on an A and eh IDK on a diamond, probably shove.
 
acky100

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Agree to stop short stacking, that's just filthy. But yeah you're shortstacking, raise to like 1.50-2 and shove any turn card, two pair is the nuts, especially when you're a jesus upsetter.
 
acky100

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Shove on a diamond ???? explain please.

We are shortstacking, are going to be very committed by the turn, (and that's a good thing) and have a good hand. Being scared of a flush draw would be real silly, flushes are hard to make and the amount of time he does have a flush even when the diamond hits the turn is pretty low considering everything else he could hold, value betting at its finest i suppose.
 
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baudib1

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yeah only an A turn is really unfavorable, he'd have to call with Ax no diamond pretty much if we raise flop/shove turn.
 
Nathan Williams

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Buyin full. Looks good, now raise and get it in.
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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Raise and look to get it in.

Are you short-stacking on purpose? If you are and you've flopped 2 pair, I imagine you already know what to do.
I'm very new to cash games, and flopping two pair is something that I was looking for advice on. As it seems to be quite villain-dependent, I thought it would be better to post specific hands that I have encountered. Obviously my temptation is just to shove.

Anyway, this is how the hand actually panned out:

Poker Stars - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com


SB: $6.73
BB Hero: $4.72
UTG: $3.40
UTG+1: $4
MP: $10
MP+1: $7.95
MP+2: $8.37
CO: $15.49
BTN: $10.25


Pre-flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB and dealt :8s4: :5s4:
3 folds, MP+1 calls $0.10, MP+2 calls $0.10, CO checks, BTN calls $0.10, SB folds, Hero checks


Flop: ($0.60) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: (5 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.62 (All-in), MP+1 folds, MP+2 calls $4.12


Turn: ($9.84) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: :6d4: (2 players)


River: ($9.84) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: :6d4: :ks4: (2 players)
 
micromachine

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So what did the villain have then? Did you forget to check 'include results'?
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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So what did the villain have then? Did you forget to check 'include results'?
Sorry, I'm new to posting hand histories, too :p

Poker Stars - $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em (9 players)
Poker Stars Hand Converter Tool from CardsChat.com

SB: $6.73
BB Hero: $4.72
UTG: $3.40
UTG+1: $4
MP: $10
MP+1: $7.95
MP+2: $8.37
CO: $15.49
BTN: $10.25

Pre-flop: ($0.30) Hero is BB and dealt :8s4: :5s4:
3 folds, MP+1 calls $0.10, MP+2 calls $0.10, CO checks, BTN calls $0.10, SB folds, Hero checks

Flop: ($0.60) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: (5 players)
Hero checks, MP+1 checks, MP+2 bets $0.50, 2 folds, Hero raises to $4.62 (All-in), MP+1 folds, MP+2 calls $4.12

Turn: ($9.84) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: :6d4: (2 players)

River: ($9.84) :5d4: :8d4: :ac4: :6d4: :ks4: (2 players)

Final Pot: $9.84

Showdown:
Hero shows :8s4: :5s4: (two pair, eights and fives)
MP+2 shows :as4: :kd4: (two pair, aces and kings)
Outcome: MP+2 wins $9.35

I assume that this was not what we would usually expect to be the outcome, but I was interested to know how it should be optimally played in this situation, so thanks for the input guys :)
 
micromachine

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I thought so, I kept forgetting to include results too :D

Unlucky result, you got your money in good though so no worries.
 
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baudib1

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WV's just jealous he's not a tourney donk.
 
F4STFORW4RD

F4STFORW4RD

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I feel that I need to address this, WVHillbilly, because although you are extremely highly regarded in this household and your opinion is very much respected, your views on SSers are well known and this line of comments effectively means that there might be no point in me asking for hand analysis at this forum in future, and that makes me very, very sad. :(

I intend to play SS at cash games until I feel comfortable playing full stacked. This might take a month or it might take a year, I don't know. PEOPLE MAKING SNOTTY COMMENTS ABOUT ME PLAYING SS WILL NOT CHANGE THE TIME WHEN THAT TRANSITION WILL HAPPEN, but they might make me feel unable to ask for hand analysis here, for example, which would be a pity.

I'm not stupid, I'm fully aware of why SSers are so disliked, I know the arguments for and against, but at the level of playing skill I'm currently at it's something that I want to do.

Although there are some extremely good and successful SSers, two obvious examples being *split* and BSSRulez, I accept that most SSers are poor players. I also comfortably fit into that category :p

It allows me to play with stats of about 6/6 while I adjust to cash tables from having been a tournament player, and try to lose some of the bad habits that I have picked up during that time as a tournament player. Hopefully playing SS won't give me too many new bad habits :p

Anyway, I'd be grateful if you guys could give me a break and get off my back - please! :)

Again, many thanks again to all those that have given CONSTRUCTIVE advice :)
WV's just jealous he's not a tourney donk.
WVHillbilly is awesome ;)
 
WVHillbilly

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My criticism was constructive. Drop down in stakes and play full stacked until you get comfortable (and better). Learning how to play SS will not help you get comfortable playing FS cash games. Playing SS with stats of 6/6 is playing SS badly anyway. If you were SS at my tables with those stats I would not look to avoid you. In fact I would actively seek you out and get every seat I could where you would be sitting to my left. You're free money at 6/6.
 
Cafeman

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Again, many thanks again to all those that have given CONSTRUCTIVE advice
You're welcome mate.

Is your plan to get up to playing with a full 100bb at some point then? If so, why not start at 2nl with 100bb, if it's purely a confidence issue? I started at 10nl before realising I wasn't really doing anything right, so I moved down to 2nl to learn with the intention of moving up. Seems like it might be something you could consider? Well intentioned advice btw!
 
Cafeman

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My criticism was constructive. Drop down in stakes and play full stacked until you get comfortable (and better). Learning how to play SS will not help you get comfortable playing FS cash games. Playing SS with stats of 6/6 is playing SS badly anyway. If you were SS at my tables with those stats I would not look to avoid you. In fact I would actively seek you out and get every seat I could where you would be sitting to my left. You're free money at 6/6.
Beat me to it ;)

Yes, this as well. You'd be on my left and I'd be min raising every blind away from you alldaylongthankyouverymuch.
 
micromachine

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If you are new to cash games AND you don't feel comfortable playing with a full stack, it would surely be better to play 2NL or 5NL with a full stack than SS at 10NL. It will be much better for your game. In fact, I would start at 2NL with a full stack, and when you feel comfortable move up to 5NL with a full stack. I have no major problems with SSers, I just think it will be better for your game in the long run to buy in full at a lower limit. GL and continue to post in forum whatever u do! :D
 
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baudib1

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I think there are merits to playing SS in certain situations and in fact, it may be that shortstacked tables are more profitable than normal tables but playing this style isn't going to get you into learning the nuances of 100 BB, 4-street poker. There are entire groups of playable hands that you can't play.

You need to work on playing the turn and river because you're a tourney donk and tourney donks suck on the turn and river. Since you already know how to play 20-40 BB stacks, what's the point? Just play tourneys, where at least you won't be outstacked by everyone else at the table.
 
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orangepeeleo

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As it seems to be quite villain-dependent

Nothing to do with the villain and much more to do with effective stack sizes, and the SPR b/c of those. In this example, the pot on the flop is 60c, by my calc you have $4.50 left, so the SPR is 7.5 (4.50/.60), TP hands are generally happy with an SPR of 5, so with 2 pair here your hand is a lock and your only worried about getting all the money in the pot. So with 100bb stacks, yes, 2 pair can cause problems vs certain villains, with 40bb stacks however, the villain doesnt even come into it.........

Which is why SS is bad, i'm not gonna tear you apart because of it (partly because your playing 10nl on stars and i'll happily take your $$ all day) this whole idea of learning cash games by playing a 40bb stack is counter-productive, because your not learning cash games. You don't learn cash games by playin 6/6 and nitting it up with 40bb stacks, you learn cash by playing smaller stakes and playing 100bb POKER, your not playing poker here, your playing bingo, waiting for decent hands and crossing your fingers that they hold up, because you can't play poker when the SPR on the flop is often going to be 6 or less, you just have to decide then and there to get it in or not, more than likely getting it in.

SS won't give you too many new bad habits, but you won't learn any new good ones either, value betting, iso-raising and stealing is where you make money at the micros and playing 100bb is the right environment to do this in.

But do what you want, already been told my advice isnt worth shit on here so ignore me if you please : )
 
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