$10 NLHE Full Ring: Good spot to 4bet AK?

W

watchtowel

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Initial raiser is 26/11/1

I figured the villain didnt have to have a really big hand to 3bet the initial raisers small raise. I thought I could get heads up, take down the pot, or fold if villain 5bets...

pokerstars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($6.74)
CO ($10)
Button ($10)
SB ($9.24)
Hero (BB) ($13.45)
UTG ($9.10)
UTG+1 ($4.47)
MP1 ($18.16)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K
diamond.gif
, A
heart.gif

3 folds, MP2 bets $0.26, 1 fold, Button raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.90
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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Initial raiser is 26/11/1

I figured the villain didnt have to have a really big hand to 3bet the initial raisers small raise. I thought I could get heads up, take down the pot, or fold if villain 5bets...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - PokerStars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($6.74)
CO ($10)
Button ($10)
SB ($9.24)
Hero (BB) ($13.45)
UTG ($9.10)
UTG+1 ($4.47)
MP1 ($18.16)

Preflop: Hero is BB with K
diamond.gif
, A
heart.gif

3 folds, MP2 bets $0.26, 1 fold, Button raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.90

No because

1.) villian probably dosent 3bet all that much.
2.) if he 5bets you are beat 100%
3.) If he calls he will likely play very well postflop, i.e fears A,K,Q boards and think he has the nuts on non-A,K,Q boards.
4.) folding AK to a 5bet is bad (it has too much equity) basically if AK is considered a 4bet bluff then WTF are you 4bet bluffing for and why do it with so much equity?


Its a great place to 3bet AK yourself, but 10nl is full of players who dont 3bet all that much so when they do they dont fold all that much to 4 bets.
 
W

watchtowel

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I thought he would widen his range because the original raiser was very loose and made such a small raise it might bring other players in...
 
Stu_Ungar

Stu_Ungar

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I thought he would widen his range because the original raiser was very loose and made such a small raise it might bring other players in...

Why?

Original raiser is very lose which probably means he dosent fold to 3bets much.

3bet size is small which suggests he dosent really know what to do when he 3bets or why he might 3bet a loose guy knowing he will call (3bet big, cbet expecting to take it down)

His stats are very tight, how is he doing all this adjusting yet not playing many hands?

Its 10NL these things arent "standard" yet so you need more concrete evidence to assume this than you would at say 200NL
 
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watchtowel

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I suppose I reasoned this way because I do it lol. I widen my 3bet to Aq, jj, 1010 for value against loose players...
 
Stu_Ungar

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I suppose I reasoned this way because I do it lol. I widen my 3bet to Aq, jj, 1010 for value against loose players...

OK but when you do it, whats your betsize?

Whats your overall stats?

Is he tighter than you?

Is he betting less than you?

If so then why do you think he is doing what you do? If his stats are tighter and his raise size less?
 
WVHillbilly

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If you ever plan to fold to a 5bet (and you should) make your 4bet MUCH smaller. $2.25 accomplishes everything you get out of $2.90 but does it cheaper.

As to if you should 4bet or fold I have no idea because you didn't give use the BTNs stats. If he's a normal 10nl player or an unknown, I'd say you're better off just folding. If you know he 3bets light from the BTN or to iso the original raiser, I think it's fine albeit with the smaller 4bet size I mentioned earlier.
 
Stu_Ungar

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If you ever plan to fold to a 5bet (and you should) make your 4bet MUCH smaller. $2.25 accomplishes everything you get out of $2.90 but does it cheaper.

As to if you should 4bet or fold I have no idea because you didn't give use the BTNs stats. If he's a normal 10nl player or an unknown, I'd say you're better off just folding. If you know he 3bets light from the BTN or to iso the original raiser, I think it's fine albeit with the smaller 4bet size I mentioned earlier.

If he 3bets light to iso the original raiser then just flat. If he 3bets light he most likely cbets ATC on an ace high board, if checked to. IF original raiser is loose, he is likely to call a lot and his range contains a lot of aces.

4betting even small here is far less likely to get called by original raiser than a 3bet. Essentially 4betting here is never for value and dosent bluff many worse hands out, you have good equity against small PP why push them out?

The presence of the OR in the 3bet pot also increases the size of any cbet and our AK makes it less lilely that if we hit A or K we are against better. So we call any flop bet, most turn bets and some river bets. Essentially we are looking for bet sizes that indicate someone trying get value from weaker aces with AJ rather than someone who 3bet preflop and is now hellbbent on geting stacks in.

I just call and play OOP.


The presence of OR forces 3better to cbet bigger as the pot is bigger.
 
Stu_Ungar

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^^^

Thats only assuming he isos light.. I dont think this player isos light.. im just saying I cant see the point in 4betting AK agfainst a guy who isos light, because it pushes out the fish. Why try and let the worst player in the hand play perfectly (by him folding much more than usual when you put in a cold 4bet).
 
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watchtowel

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I just realized I didn't post the stats of button. He was 11/11/3. It was him that 3bet. The only hands I am in bad shape against are AA and KK. I thought there was a good chance OR would go away and I would either ISO button if he called and play him on the flop which means he doesn't have AA or KK and just take it from there. Or if he 5bet surely he would have me beat with AA or KK. It was from his stats tight players generally don't let loose players min-raise into a pot with so many players left to act so I thought he was isolating the OR with a wide range like 99+ and Aj+. I generally player 16/14/3 so he is a bit tighter than me.
 
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watchtowel

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^^^

Thats only assuming he isos light.. I dont think this player isos light.. im just saying I cant see the point in 4betting AK agfainst a guy who isos light, because it pushes out the fish. Why try and let the worst player in the hand play perfectly (by him folding much more than usual when you put in a cold 4bet).

I know it pushes out the fish but if he is 3betting with AA or KK and I just call I'll not know if I am good even when I hit... If you are right and he doesn't widen his 3betting range am I not better folding than calling?
 
Stu_Ungar

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I just realized I didn't post the stats of button. He was 11/11/3. It was him that 3bet. The only hands I am in bad shape against are AA and KK. I thought there was a good chance OR would go away and I would either ISO button if he called and play him on the flop which means he doesn't have AA or KK and just take it from there. Or if he 5bet surely he would have me beat with AA or KK. It was from his stats tight players generally don't let loose players min-raise into a pot with so many players left to act so I thought he was isolating the OR with a wide range like 99+ and Aj+. I generally player 16/14/3 so he is a bit tighter than me.

Well you are in bad shape against AA/KK and any PP the difference between a gut 3betting high PP and someone 3betting all PP is its far easier to get someone to fold low PP when AK misses and far less likely for them to cbet big and then bet the turn big with 22 (so you can see all 5 cards cheap)

Clearly BTN is not widening his range and or isoing light.

Fold.
 
Stu_Ungar

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I know it pushes out the fish but if he is 3betting with AA or KK and I just call I'll not know if I am good even when I hit... If you are right and he doesn't widen his 3betting range am I not better folding than calling?

Yeah because people tend to iso light and then stack off with weak aces so if you hit an ace you wouldnt know???????
 
Stu_Ungar

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I know it pushes out the fish but if he is 3betting with AA or KK and I just call I'll not know if I am good even when I hit... If you are right and he doesn't widen his 3betting range am I not better folding than calling?

Calling is only an option if he isos wide!

I keep telling you he dosent iso wide!

Calling was in response to WVs idea of 4betting against a wide iso.
 
Stu_Ungar

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If you ever plan to fold to a 5bet (and you should) make your 4bet MUCH smaller. .


I agree that you should make your 4bets smaller if you intend to fold to a 5bet, however you should never 4 bet a hand like AK with the intention of folding to a 5bet. So if you couldnt call a 5bet then you shouldnt 4bet AK.. it has just way too much equity.
 
Stu_Ungar

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TBH I thought the 26/11 was the 3better and the "loose" MP player was going to be something like 30/20 or something.

It turns out the MP player is tight and the btn is tighter... there is just no way this is an iso .. ever
 
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